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Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

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Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#641

Post by unyttigfjelltol »

trymas wrote: post #256

Side topic, but this number puts into how crazy it was for trump[0] to go on tariff war against enemies and friends alike. All the propaganda and extortionist language about how all countries will pay up to USA. Astronomical tariffs in some cases, trade wars and dramas, alienate all allies and from all of this they got only $130B ? $7T of spending, $1.77T in deficit[1] and they planned to fix this hole with $100B?! M…

No, Trump manufactured negotiating leverage out of thin air— nothing, really. He extracted concessions on something like a bluff. Plus, didn’t he also extract a budget that in retrospect wasn’t appropriate had the tariff revenue been removed?

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#642

Post by lotsofpulp »

hunterpayne wrote: post #610
functionmouse wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies will make far more than 130b off this. There's no way they only raised prices just enough to cover the 130b and the labor required for the internal policy changes. This was a justification for price gouging. Which they will not stop doing.

Agreed, this is the real take away most people will be left with. Not only did we all pay higher prices, instead of using that money to pay off the debt we give it away to business managers who were never out that money in the first place. Politically, that doesn't accomplish what some think it does. Midterms are coming up in 8 months...and the results of the house are going to be drastic no matter which side wins. E…

> Either Trump can do what he wants or the government will be deadlocked and nothing will happen for 2 years.

That isn’t drastic, that is already how it is.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#643

Post by myko »

kgwxd wrote: post #586
bluegatty wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they are not that smart. Even if the tariffs are not a lot, they are potent negotiating leverage. They def knew they were lying about much they were collecting They def knew they were lying about who is paying They lied to the public about that and got a bit of extra creme in the bag but the effect was mostly leverage, which 'kind of worked'. They could have very effectively used illegal tariffs to actually do 90…

You really think Trump is orchestrating any of this? He reads the script he's given.

I'm not really sure he's capable of reading

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#644

Post by maxlin »

trymas wrote: post #256

Side topic, but this number puts into how crazy it was for trump[0] to go on tariff war against enemies and friends alike. All the propaganda and extortionist language about how all countries will pay up to USA. Astronomical tariffs in some cases, trade wars and dramas, alienate all allies and from all of this they got only $130B ? $7T of spending, $1.77T in deficit[1] and they planned to fix this hole with $100B?! M…

-They only got 130B -They planned to fix all this with 100B?

I see what you did there. 70B eh? They only got 50B. A paltry 20B?

The real number though, was gotten in a relatively short time. And now replacement tariffs are on the way. And many companies have re-thought of manufacturing outside US with the higher tariffs always being the possibility in the future too.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#645

Post by fc417fc802 »

epolanski wrote: post #458
jonathanlydall wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I don't understand as I'm an outsider, but as per my recent comment on this topic [0], I fail to see the logic of how "other countries" pay the US when the tariffs are paid by the importer and not the other country which is exporting. I do acknowledge that import taxes can in theory help local industries, especially if the other countries are subsidizing exported goods. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id…

Tariffs almost never make sense, unless it's an industry that's super important for your own survival. Capitalism is about efficiency, and eventually there are going countries where producing certain items will always be more efficient. East asian countries have spent decades innovating and investing in their manufacturing capabilities. Also, one thing that grinds my nerves are the narratives of trade balances that o…

It's not that it's conveniently ignored. It's that a services economy, while lucrative in the good times, leaves you lacking self sufficiency and resilience. We should never have let manufacturing leave to the extent that we did, all in the name of efficiency over all else.

Of course it goes without saying that launching an absurdist comedy interpretation of a global trade war is not the way to fix the problem.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#646

Post by cyberax »

epolanski wrote: post #470
duxup wrote: post #96

Absolutely absurd that we’re at this point. The courts / SCOTUS let the government roll out a massive and obviously illegal tax on citizens for a long time. They should have stepped in earlier. Now we the people probably don’t get our money back….

> Absolutely absurd that we’re at this point. It's not really, this is the result of having a flawed democratic system. What do Turkey, Philippines, Russia, Belarus, Hungary, Nicaragua, etc and now US have all in common? They are ALL presidential or semi-presidential republics where a single person "rules" without needing to face opposition in a parliament nor even requiring support from its own party. Winner-takes-a…

The US is special. It's a true federative nation, with a fairly weak federal government and strong individual states. So the president actually does not have a lot of power inside the country. He can't just fire the governor of Minnesota or unilaterally cut funds to a state that he doesn't like.

But the foreign policy is where the president's authority is outsized. So that's why Trump is so focused on it, it's one of the few areas that he can directly control.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#648

Post by abruzzi »

I'd curious specifically about FedEx (and other parcel shippers like UPS if they filed suit as well.) They operated as a broker--they collected many of those fees from individuals who bought something overseas and when it was shipped in, FedEx paid the tariff then then billed the receiver. If FedEx wins a refund will I get paid back for the fee I paid them? I don't expect I'll see the "brokerage fee" because the labor was expended whether the tariff was legal or not and is not part of the refund they'd get, but I'd appreciate if I see the $79 I paid them to cover the tariffs for some Arca Swiss camera parts. I honestly haven't heard anything specific on that matter.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#649

Post by ncallaway »

abruzzi wrote: post #648

I'd curious specifically about FedEx (and other parcel shippers like UPS if they filed suit as well.) They operated as a broker--they collected many of those fees from individuals who bought something overseas and when it was shipped in, FedEx paid the tariff then then billed the receiver. If FedEx wins a refund will I get paid back for the fee I paid them? I don't expect I'll see the "brokerage fee" because the labo…

Most of them have promised to issue refunds to customers if and when they get refunded the money.

FedEx:

> Our intent is straightforward: if refunds are issued to FedEx, we will issue refunds to the shippers and consumers who originally bore those charges. When that will happen and the exact process for requesting and issuing refunds will depend in part on future guidance from the government and the court.

https://www.fedex.com/en-us/shipping/international/us-tariff...

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#650

Post by fc417fc802 »

epolanski wrote: post #470
duxup wrote: post #96

Absolutely absurd that we’re at this point. The courts / SCOTUS let the government roll out a massive and obviously illegal tax on citizens for a long time. They should have stepped in earlier. Now we the people probably don’t get our money back….

> Absolutely absurd that we’re at this point. It's not really, this is the result of having a flawed democratic system. What do Turkey, Philippines, Russia, Belarus, Hungary, Nicaragua, etc and now US have all in common? They are ALL presidential or semi-presidential republics where a single person "rules" without needing to face opposition in a parliament nor even requiring support from its own party. Winner-takes-a…

> where a single person "rules" without needing to face opposition in a parliament nor even requiring support from its own party

But that doesn't describe the US right now. The problem is that the GOP is providing at least enough support to enable the behavior that we currently see. If congress as a whole wanted to stop things they could.

I actually quite like the US system but the combination of first past the post voting and party politics appear increasingly likely to strangle us.

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