Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Who would actually decide to switch from a modern EV to gasoline on purpose of their own choice? Anyone who likes the sensations of driving and not just going fast in a straight line. When you show me the equivalent of an EV Lotus Elise, I'll be properly swayed.
What percentage of the car buying market buys enthusiast vehicles? The top of the charts is made up of cars like the RAV4, Model Y, and CR-V. These all represent versatile practical family transportation. Enthusiast vehicles are disappearing in the middle class segment of the market. Where are the Mitsubishi Eclipse, Toyota Celica, Toyota MR2, Chevrolet Camaro, Z4/Supra getting discontinued, Focus RS, Mitsubishi Lanc…
Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study
641–650 of 661 posts
Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study
#642Earlier quoted context omitted.
So, you say that smoother braking (engine braking) causes more wear on tires than harsher braking (applying brakes)? How so?
What? No. We definitely didn't follow one another. I'm confused where we misunderstood one another now. For the purposes of tire wear, applying regen braking in a car is the same as applying brake pads. Generating 5kW of electricity of 10 seconds vs generating 5kW of heat for 10 seconds, same same. Let's say you're on the highway driving in an EV. You have cruise control on. You go down a hill. The EV's cruise contro…
That's an assumption I disagree with. Brake pads will always be less smooth than engine braking. For the same braking action, I assume more brake dust and slightly higher tire wear due to brakes not able to provide fine speed adjustment.
The down-the-hill scenario is interesting, it brings new comparisons: is there more tire wear from maintaining a chosen speed, vs letting the car overspeed and then braking? How does air resistance contribute in each case?
I maintain my earlier opinion that the differences between all these scenarios are minimal and can be ignored. But if you have some physical model that helps calculate these scenarios, it could be fun to play around with.
Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study
#643Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even modern cars pollute a lot (especially in winter) because you need a certain temperature for the cats to start working. On short city trips it happens frequently that you never reach proper operating temperatures.
Yes, any cyclist daring to drive in winter can easily confirm this. It is so disgusting (and unhealthy) having to stand behind a ICE car on a traffic light and being behind a electric car is such a relief, that thoughts of wishing to ban all ICE cars as soon as possible (at least in cities) come automatically.
Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study
#644Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many car enthusiasts remove the catalytic converter for a combination of additional power and/or better sound. It has a massive impact on emissions and what you might be smelling is hydrogen sulfide which is normally converted to sulfur dioxide which is orderless. I should note the power increase may not have a major impact on newer cars where the cat has been optimized to reduce it's negative power impact. Infact a…
As someone into performance cars and motorcycles, removing a cat is pretty uncommon, and you're generally seen as a dick if you do it.
Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study
#645Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just because a tire lasts as long doesn't mean it isn't wearing in different ways. EV specific tires are a lot different than their ICE counterparts. This isn't "black PR". It's comparing apples and oranges. But throw non-EV tires on one and you'll definitely chew those tires up much more quickly [0][1][2][3]. [0] https://www.wheel-size.com/articles/how-are-electric-vehicle... [1]: https://www.pepboys.com/car-care/ti…
But my Ioniq 5 is lighter than a large number of ICE SUVs on the road.
An Ioniq 5 can weigh over 1000lbs more than a Honda CR-V, for example (depending on trim & battery).
Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study
#646Earlier quoted context omitted.
Once a week you plug it in for ~30 minutes somewhere. EVs charge unattended, so they can be left charging while you do something else. Shopping malls often have chargers. At city distances and city speeds BEVs often have enough battery to last a week or two, and the battery doesn't drop when the car isn't used. You don't have to charge to full if you don't have time. Even if you plug it in for 10 minutes, you'll prob…
I can't think of the last time I've willingly gone to a store to shop. I do all my shopping online and everything is delivery including groceries. Going to a physical store feels like a huge waste of time to me. I drive quite a bit for work as I drive around and calibrate and repair lab equipment so it just seems like a major inconvenience to my schedule to have to go places to charge for awhile so often and hope the…
I don't have a charger at home, but when I'm travelling I stop at pubs, cafes, and fast food joints, so I have plenty of opportunities to charge.
Some cities have chargers in lamp posts for overnight charging of cars parked on the street. This should be more common! 300kW DC chargers that recharge in 20 minutes are an expensive equipment, but 3kW AC chargers are technically almost as primitive as a cable for an electric oven.
Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study
#647Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Oh no, am i bad at making jokes?, Or is your argument a joke? No my argument was serious. You've sliced your data gratuitously. You're also making rude jokes, and I think there are HN rules about that somewhere. But, I'll forgive you. Right where you found your data (you shouldn't use Wikipedia for science), is a map of coal plants in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal-fired_power_stati... You looke…
You select your 'facts' to fit your narrative. If the obvious fact - coal is 20% of energy production in the US and falling - you worm yorself around it. If you want to look at the US as a country, you use number of the country. As such, coal is 20% of power used by EV. A massive improvement. Point dismissed, try something else. > The primary point, however, is that EVs move the pollutants up the supply chain. Massiv…
Did you really not understand? I suspect you did, and in the context of your previous jokes, I think you're trying to annoy me. It'd be nice if that's not true.
Is it?
I suppose if we want to look at the US as a country (pretending it's all one city with one grid), then we will continue to encourage the 20% (roughly by your numbers) that drive gasoline in the coal power areas to downgrade to coal powered EVs.
I don't think that's good. I think you're careless and destructive for supporting that.
Anyway, you're not really acknowledging very real problems with your assertions and that's not going to make for coherent discussion. There's nothing scientific about that, so I suspect you might not be interested in science.
Lost my interest. Cheers.
For others reading, I'm happy to continue scientific discussion on this topic, especially if you disagree.
Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study
#648Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe if they used their brakes all the time, but they don't. (Regen braking uses no brakes). That's why EVs, while heaver, require fewer brake pad replacements than ICE cars.
Interesting. But what about the use and abuse and shredding of tyres?
Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study
#649Earlier quoted context omitted.
My experience is limited to cars manufactured before 2008 (back to 1928). Maybe the new ones are all welded cold rolled steel tubes but I've only seen cast parts for intake and exhaust manifolds, nearly universally. Shit cracked all the time.
This isn't a new thing. Jeep used "factory headers" on the last years of the 4.0. Ford did welded manifolds on the 5.0 Explorers. Subaru went to welded steel for the EJ series engine in the 90s. GM had them on the LT5 in the early 90s. Just about every application that has the catalytic converter right up at the manifold used a welded one.
Note that the one I worked on was in a US Forester so definitely not stock parts (j is for Japan)
EDIT: link to example 2005 manifold listing on eBay
Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study
#650Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Really step back and imagine a world where the modern EV [1] was first to market and a gasoline combustion engine was second. .... you worded that extremely poorly. Being first to market is completely different then someone's personal first experience. Between that first sentence and the follow post, it's like reading the question what if the smartphone came out before the electric telegraph. If you're trying to say…
Per your third paragraph, that’s exactly what I’m saying. If BEVs of modern capability were either first to market and/or the first car-buying experience, those network effects and preconceptions/biases wouldn’t be a big buying hurdle like they are today. I did mention the three major drawbacks: fueling time on long trips, extra curb weight, and cost. But I also mentioned that even in the non-hypothetical status quo,…
Yeah but gotta keep in mind when the first gas cars as tools came out, you didn't need a gas station on every corner either. You bought your fuel from the drug store. Even then a lot of early 'gas' cars were readily modified to be multifuel; kerosene (which was available everywhere due to use of for lighting), naptha, coal gas, mineral spirits, but you could modify the car to run off moonshine if need be.
But okay, let's just say for a second that there were no world wars, and in this universe petroleum wasn't discovered until a good chunk of electric infrastructure was built out.
I'd probably wager that liquid fuel engines would probably catch up to the electric vehicles pretty fast and likely surpass it in popularity in 30 or 40 years. You can pack a gas motor that outputs 20x more power into a package that's the same size as a DC motor. For farmer's that's a vehicle that can till deeper or a larger piece of land in a single pass, for merchants that means more goods you can carry in a single run.
For the wealthier class probably the electric would've been attractive but keep in mind that one of the biggest reasons wealthy urbanites owned cars at the time was for racing. Electrics in the original timeline were considered to be more ladylike because you didn't need the muscles to manually crank the engine (and risk punching yourself in the face when it turned unexpectedly). Probably in this timeline though, because electric motors are more advanced, you bypass that problem much more quickly and now you've got a vehicle that's only slightly more maintenance, but way more capable. And when the first times when a gas car out runs electrics of that era and makes said wealthy BEV owners look slower... yeah.
Yeah I'd assume that BEV's would advance more but ultimately they'd probably just hit the plateau of what battery chemistry and DC motor design can with pure analog systems, probably with either NiCD or NiMH chemistry. The next big leap with chemistry from those to lithium didn't really hit mainstream until the advent of extremely battery management circuits came about. And without WW2 in this universe driving the need for transistors...
>I also think your use of your personal anecdote isn’t a very convincing argument by itself. BEVs aren’t right for you as of today, in a world which isn’t a part of this hypothetical. You also pointed out that you are a minority outlier by having odd requirements like “I don’t have data on my smartphone.” Do you think that’s common? I think most people even un in developing countries have smartphone data access.
Last I checked, it was about 15% to 20% of Canadians that don't have a data plan on their phone, so that's 1 in 5 to 7 Canadians. So you're not wrong, but in a city of 1 million, that's close to 150,000 to 200,000 people. Minority yeah but not exactly one that can be readily ignored, that's still a lot of people.
Granted though, Canada has public WiFi access points basically everywhere so it's not too hard to get away with it.
>Over half of homes in US housing stock are single family houses with implicit access to charging. Daily commutes are around 40 miles. I argue that we should logically see ~50% of new vehicles being EVs but we are way below that number and I put that on customer familiarities and preconceptions.
I'm Canadian, and hypothetically that's true here too. In practice it's not as clear cut as that.
Detached garages here for the most part are built with only a single 15A circuit running to it, so even a full level 1 charging working it can cause the breaker to trip when someone turns on the lights or runs the garage door opener. Upgrading it needs permitting to be filed and signed off by a master electrician, and typically also involves trenching and replacing of conduit, even if all you want to do is just add in one additional 15A circuit. And detached style garages were the norm for housing builds until around I wanna say 2000 to 2005 ish, when attached garages started becoming more the trend.
If I had to guess, I'd say that's about roughly half of the single family homes in that situation here, so chances are that if the family wanted a BEV with a detached garage, you're spending $1800 to $2500 on top of the cost of the materials and labour for the EVSE install itself. Most electricians last I asked were charging roughly $2000 parts and labour included (which is really high, most because AFAIK because the moment the word EVSE leaves the client's mouth, electricians add the Rich-Person-Tax onto their quotes). $4500 extra on top of an already more expensive car is a tall order.
The other half of houses circa 2005 to 2018 are probably in better shape but those typically only have 100A panels so... if they don't have additional equipment outside of stove, dryer, etc then they're probably okay to install a level 2 charger. How many of those can or can't, I don't know. But for me at least it does complicate the math quite a bit because I'm somewhat more partial to getting a heat pump over at home BEV charging if I had to chose.
The other issue that spans all wealth levels is households that for whatever use their garages for storing junk instead of their cars. I don't understand it but it's, remarkably common to see. And the city I live in makes it illegal to pull charging cables across or over sidewalks so that makes that bit of a issue.
That being said that's me commenting on the Canadian side. I don't know how much of an issue it is for Americans in general. US households AFAIK adopted 200 amp panels as standard 20 years ago so that shouldn't be as much of a problem.