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Jonathan Blow has spent the past decade designing 1,400 puzzles

arstechnica.com

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Re: Jonathan Blow has spent the past decade designing 1,400 puzzles

#641

Post by Johanx64 »

AndriyKunitsyn wrote: post #638
Johanx64 wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So far, he hasn't shown that using Jai is particularly productive for software engineering. And how would he do that exactly to whatever ungodly standards you are setting for the man? Many people have criticized C++ in past (which is very easy to do), yet he's practicing what he's preaching in the most direct way humanly possible, he's both (1) designed and implemented a new programming language (that has directly…

>And how would he do that exactly to whatever ungodly standards you are setting for the man? By providing a result in a way that will be superior to the current status quo. Maybe there will be results, but right now there are none. I have no idea why you are so invested. I don't care about the man's personality or whatever qualities he has. I look at what he does, and so far, he spent 10 years making a game that you…

We've quite shifted the goalpost.

>I don't care about the man's personality or whatever qualities he has.

The only thing I'm addressing is the so called "luxuries" you alluded to, and the alleged "luxuries" he has is directly a result of his personality and his qualities.

The only reason you don't have those so called "luxuries" is because you're not even in the same ballpark as good. It really is as simple as that.

> By providing a result in a way that will be superior to the current status quo.

But he's done exactly that.

> I look at what he does, and so far, he spent 10 years making a game that you yourself admit won't be even that good.

I'm not saying that the game won't be good necessarily, I'm saying the game probably might not sell very well (atleast not to justify the amount of money spent from purely business perspective, etc)

There's a difference.

Re: Jonathan Blow has spent the past decade designing 1,400 puzzles

#642

Post by psyopsy »

__alexs wrote: post #640
psyopsy wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low bar to accuse. High bar to retract. Classic.

I'd happily accuse quite a lot of people of not being very welcoming to women in the industry. It's a very common trait to have.

Happily accusing without evidence? Not shocking behavior. What's shocking is to just say it out loud. LMAO. Funny how "believe women" stops applying when their choices contradict your priors.

Re: Jonathan Blow has spent the past decade designing 1,400 puzzles

#643

Post by psyopsy »

__alexs wrote: post #639
psyopsy wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You started with “not well explained by biology.” All of the evidence is solidly on one side, so you’ve retreated to “we can neither confirm nor deny.” I guess that’s progress?

Again, those statements are not contradictory.

They're not contradictory in a vacuum. But in this sequence, they show you're backpedaling. You opened with a firm claim, and when confronted with actual data, you retreated to 'we can't know.' Pretending that perfect certainty is required here is just a dodge.

Re: Jonathan Blow has spent the past decade designing 1,400 puzzles

#644

Post by sean_bright »

tzcnt wrote: post #398
blarg1 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did you think of the puzzles?

I found them quite boring since they are all repetitions on the same theme - just drawing lines on a square. It could have been a mobile game. The world doesn't feel connected to the puzzles, and the exploration aspect of it could have been a completely separate game. It feels like two games glued together, which is IMO not a good design. It's also not a game that's very demanding from a technical performance perspec…

> It could have been a mobile game.

I tried to play it on iOS and found the controls clunky. Interacting with some of the puzzles was difficult with my thumbs in the way.

Re: Jonathan Blow has spent the past decade designing 1,400 puzzles

#645

Post by tialaramex »

zozzle wrote: post #628
tialaramex wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women who insist that they specifically get to decide who is or isn't a woman and what women believe aren't new. Phyllis Schlafly managed to ensure the Equal Rights Amendment didn't pass on this same basis. Phyllis would fly from city to city, addressing crowds of women to tell them that women should be at home looking after their kids, not um, flying from city to city making political addresses like she did... Bewar…

Phyllis Schlafly is an odd comparison to make. She argued that women should stay in traditional roles and out of public life (while as you mention, not following her own advice), whereas JKR and other feminists take the exact opposite view. Not sure I see the relevance of your analogy here. As for Bang Face last year, what happened is that security staff kicked a group of males out from the women's toilets. I agree t…

So, you absolutely agree with Phyllis, that one woman somehow gets to decide who is or isn't a woman and what all women believe.

And yet this fact about your belief makes you so uncomfortable that you find yourself trying to pretend that somehow it's the opposite of what you believe.

Re: Jonathan Blow has spent the past decade designing 1,400 puzzles

#646

Post by baranul »

saberience wrote: post #111
gortok wrote: post #99

The folks that dismiss JB’s work by saying “this could have been done in ” are missing the point of why anything is done. If you are entirely utilitarian in how you approach making a game (as in this case) then you’ll want to create as little as possible to make the game. An existing game engine, an existing programming language, existing libraries, etc. If your goal is the economic return that making a game will (ho…

Blow made his own language because he's so eye-wateringly arrogant and thinks every language (that he didn't make) sucks, and only he is smart enough to design a better language for programming games. Seriously, this is why he did it. His ego and arrogance is off the charts and if it wasn't made by him, he thinks it sucks (e.g. he doesn't like Linux, probably because he realizes Torvalds is actually smarter than him)…

Think it's more along the lines of Jon having the ability to create a language, and upon being dissatisfied with what he was using, decided to make his own.

GitHub is littered with pet languages that people have made, and doubt their reasons are simply about being "eye-wateringly arrogant".

Moving past that, people paying attention or wanting to use the language, usually means it appeals to them. Jai has fans and supporters, because they are able to look past or are not concerned about his personality quirks, but are focused on the quality and usefulness of the software produced.

Re: Jonathan Blow has spent the past decade designing 1,400 puzzles

#647

Post by AndriyKunitsyn »

Johanx64 wrote: post #641
AndriyKunitsyn wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And how would he do that exactly to whatever ungodly standards you are setting for the man? By providing a result in a way that will be superior to the current status quo. Maybe there will be results, but right now there are none. I have no idea why you are so invested. I don't care about the man's personality or whatever qualities he has. I look at what he does, and so far, he spent 10 years making a game that you…

We've quite shifted the goalpost. >I don't care about the man's personality or whatever qualities he has. The only thing I'm addressing is the so called "luxuries" you alluded to, and the alleged "luxuries" he has is directly a result of his personality and his qualities. The only reason you don't have those so called "luxuries" is because you're not even in the same ballpark as good. It really is as simple as that.…

> But he's done exactly that.

He hasn't. He made a programming language that allows making a sokoban game in 10 years. That's probably not what people need. The industry can make similar games in a course of several months. It doesn't look like a groundbreaking achievement to me. A monumental amount of effort, sure, but the _result_ isn't there.

Plus, _in the past_, he made Braid, in C++, in a relatively practical way. He made money using the industry standards, now he loses money deviating from the industry standards. The question I'm interested in is: why would anyone listen to what the man _says_ if his own preaching makes him lose money?

But okay, you don't want to hear any of that. You keep fixating on the "luxury" part. The reason we talk about JBlow is because he made Braid back in 2008, and it was an awesome game, and it sold well. More importantly, the timing when it released - it was what kicked off the boom of the indie game development back then. He also made The Witness, and although it was also a good game, it was most likely not as groundbreaking as Braid, considering that he chose Braid instead of The Witness for a remaster. And then he complained that it, quote, "sold like dogs**", end of quote. Unfortunately, what was the jewel of the indie game development in 2008, doesn't really excite the audience that much in 2024. The world has moved on.

The music indsutry is well aware of a phenomenon of a "one-hit wonder". If the JBlow's qualities were the only reason he could make Braid and get rich enough to not release anything for a decade, then surely anybody with these qualities could make Braid 2 and do the same thing, correct? Well, nobody can do that. Not even JBlow himself. Not anymore. It's not 2008.

Therefore, yes, it is a luxury.

Re: Jonathan Blow has spent the past decade designing 1,400 puzzles

#648

Post by Johanx64 »

AndriyKunitsyn wrote: post #647
Johanx64 wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've quite shifted the goalpost. >I don't care about the man's personality or whatever qualities he has. The only thing I'm addressing is the so called "luxuries" you alluded to, and the alleged "luxuries" he has is directly a result of his personality and his qualities. The only reason you don't have those so called "luxuries" is because you're not even in the same ballpark as good. It really is as simple as that.…

> But he's done exactly that. He hasn't. He made a programming language that allows making a sokoban game in 10 years. That's probably not what people need. The industry can make similar games in a course of several months. It doesn't look like a groundbreaking achievement to me. A monumental amount of effort, sure, but the _result_ isn't there. Plus, _in the past_, he made Braid, in C++, in a relatively practical wa…

> The music indsutry is well aware of a phenomenon of a "one-hit wonder".

He made two hit games, Witness was released 7.5 years later.

> Within a week of release, Blow stated that sales of The Witness had nearly outpaced what Braid had done during its first year of release.

> The Witness is widely regarded as one of the best games of the 2010s. The game appeared on 'Best of the decade' features from IGN,[103] Polygon,[104] NME,[105] CNET,[106] and National Post.[107] Edge considered the game the 22nd-best game of all time in 2017

Calling him "one-hit wonder" simply has no basis in reality. He's at minimum a two-hit wonder.

> it was most likely not as groundbreaking as Braid, considering that he chose Braid instead of The Witness for a remaster.

Now you're making shit up on the spot to make an argument. Think for a second will you, how exactly would he remaster Witness? Braid Anniversary Edition was announced on 2020, at which point Witness would merely have been ~4 year old game.

Braid was also made for a 720p console, the Xbox360 Xbox Live Arcade service, so remake atleast makes some sense.

> The question I'm interested in is: why would anyone listen to what the man _says_ if his own preaching makes him lose money?

What exactly is he _preaching_? Not what you have cooked up in your mind, but actually _preaching_?

Why would anyone pay attention to the man who has made TWO hit games in a row, and a third one in his own programming language (that has inspired countless other programming languages like Zig and Odin), yes, why indeed people would listen to an exceptional guy who has repeatedly demonstrated competency and delivered results, whilst always putting it all on the line?

Can you make atleast one hit, not two, just one? Or anything of note?

No you can't, you can do nothing, that's why you don't have the "luxuries" and people don't listen to you, but pay attention to him. You might not like it, but it is what it is.

And you like to comfort yourself with the thought that you don't have some sort of unearned "luxuries", because otherwise you would do great things.

But the reality is that he's exceptional and you're not.

Paul Graham has this wonderful article on this topic: https://paulgraham.com/fh.html

Re: Jonathan Blow has spent the past decade designing 1,400 puzzles

#649

Post by socalgal2 »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #618
socalgal2 wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's just as possible (and actually TRUE) that your interpretation of their words is a mis-representation their POV.

Their "POV" is irrelevant. Their actions speak for themselves.

Your POV of their actions is different than their POV of their actions.

Simple example: They want ot fund the police

Their POV: make everyone safer

Another POV: fund bad people

Their POV isn't wrong, it's just different.

Re: Jonathan Blow has spent the past decade designing 1,400 puzzles

#650

Post by adamrezich »

hiccuphippo wrote: post #301
dsissitka wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Guess how many Blow has shipped? 0 so far, but it sounds close now. One, but it was something like three years late: https://store.steampowered.com/app/499180/Braid_Anniversary_...

Was it rebuilt in Jai?

No, it was not, due to time constraints.
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