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We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

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Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#641

Post by kristov »

I think the conversation needs to change from "can't run software of our choice" to "can't participate in society without an apple or google account". I have been living with a de-googled android phone for a number of years, and it is getting harder and harder, while at the same time operating without certain "apps" is becoming more difficult.

For example, by bank (abn amro) still allows online banking on desktop via a physical auth device, but they are actively pushing for login only via their app. I called their support line for a lost card, and had to go through to second level support because I didn't have the app. If they get their way, eventually an apple or google account will be mandatory to have a bank account with them.

My kid goes to a school that outsourced all communication via an app. They have a web version, but it's barely usable. The app doesn't run without certain google libs installed. Again, to participate in school communication about my kid effectively requires an apple or google account.

I feel like the conversation we should be having is that we are sleepwalking into a world where to participate in society you must have an account with either apple or google. If you decide you don't want a relationship with either of those companies you will be extremely disadvantaged.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#642

Post by carra »

tzury wrote: post #84

We need both options to coexist: 1. Open, hackable hardware for those who want full control and for driving innovation 2. Locked-down, managed devices for vulnerable users who benefit from protection This concept of "I should run any code on hardware I own" is completely wrong as a universal principle. Yes, we absolutely should be able to run any code we want on open hardware we own - that option must exist. But we s…

In theory these 2 options seem like a sensible way to have a choice. But the average user is not going to own and carry 2 devices. We want to have all we need in a single device, and things like paying with your phone have become way too common by now to not have them.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#643

Post by tiahura »

wvh wrote: post #462
zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

What I like about your comment is that it points out that all technical work-arounds are moot if people as a whole are not willing to stand up with pitchforks and torches to defend their freedoms. It will always come down to that. A handful of tech-savvy users with rooted devices and open-source software will not make a difference to the giant crushing machine that is the system. And I'm afraid most of us are part of…

Telling people how they have to design their systems is the opposite of freedom.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#644

Post by p1esk »

camgunz wrote: post #639
wvh wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I like about your comment is that it points out that all technical work-arounds are moot if people as a whole are not willing to stand up with pitchforks and torches to defend their freedoms. It will always come down to that. A handful of tech-savvy users with rooted devices and open-source software will not make a difference to the giant crushing machine that is the system. And I'm afraid most of us are part of…

> What I like about your comment is that it points out that all technical work-arounds are moot if people as a whole are not willing to stand up with pitchforks and torches to defend their freedoms. If your system requires extraordinary political efforts from large numbers of people, your system will fail. We are the elites, we have to oppose this. If Netflix asks us to implement this kind of DRM, we have to resign.…

We are the elites

Wait, what?

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#645

Post by lwhi »

_heimdall wrote: post #594
lwhi wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact true competition is only possible via open standards, protocols and technology stacks. We need agreement to ensure the large corporations adhere to these.

This doesn't seem right to me. It is often in companies' best interests to adopt standards, but that is because it allows them both to have an optimized supply chain. Car manufacturers today have a lot of standards that I expect would make competition from any new contenders harder not easier. Tesla would be an example of that, they did survive but the industry thought it was never going to work precisely because of…

Sorry, but you're incorrect.

If a particular product is tied to a specific proprietary tech stack, then the consumer is also tied to specific suppliers. This is known as vendor lock in.

Microsoft used this approach with Internet Explorer back in the old days; ensuring that it provided proprietary elements and implementation, that would encourage developers to provide websites that only functioned using their browser.

Open standards allow choice.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#646

Post by Palomides »

dangus wrote: post #588
daniel_iversen wrote: post #564

This might be controversial but I'm not sure you should be able to install whatever you want on "hardware you own". Reason being (and I was trying hard to explore an "other side of the argument" and whether there was/is one) examples like Kindles, where I think originally Amazon had it as a loss leader to sell ebooks. I reckon they brought a great product into the market and established a new category (mass market eb…

Some other examples of why this could be bad: - Running code on your car that compromises safety, like modifying/disabling legally-required safety features. - Modifying code on health devices, like pacemakers - Protective code involving things like overheating protections (e.g., firmware preventing you from disabling cooling fans in your laptop or running your 3D printer so that it catches fire) - Running devices wit…

I should be able to modify the software on all of those things, if I want to toast my CPU, my car, or my heart, that's entirely reasonable and there are tons of other ways to do them anyway

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#647

Post by [deleted] »

dangus wrote: post #588
daniel_iversen wrote: post #564

This might be controversial but I'm not sure you should be able to install whatever you want on "hardware you own". Reason being (and I was trying hard to explore an "other side of the argument" and whether there was/is one) examples like Kindles, where I think originally Amazon had it as a loss leader to sell ebooks. I reckon they brought a great product into the market and established a new category (mass market eb…

Some other examples of why this could be bad: - Running code on your car that compromises safety, like modifying/disabling legally-required safety features. - Modifying code on health devices, like pacemakers - Protective code involving things like overheating protections (e.g., firmware preventing you from disabling cooling fans in your laptop or running your 3D printer so that it catches fire) - Running devices wit…

[deleted]

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#648

Post by lwhi »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #616
lwhi wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact true competition is only possible via open standards, protocols and technology stacks. We need agreement to ensure the large corporations adhere to these.

We don't need agreement for this. In the past, hardware was limited, and you could only really implement one ( maybe two) network stacks before things got silly. Nowadays, a software-defined radio can speak ten thousand protocols, for a lower cost than saving a cat video to your hard drive. We only need that the standards are open, and described clearly enough for a schoolchild to implement, and that we are not preve…

We're not just talking about hardware here.

Any standard that is developed closed-source and is protected or proprietary, can and will prevent consumer choice further down the line.

Interoperability of data, choice between vendors, and the ability for smaller players to compete with established larger players are all directly negatively affected by a lack of open standards.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#649

Post by mcv »

mlrtime wrote: post #615
mcv wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. The current security model of desktop OSs sucks. I was recently reminded of this by an issue at work. I'm used to devs having admin rights on their laptops, but here they closed that down: you have to request admin rights for a specific purpose, and then you get them for a week. I recently requested those rights again because I needed to install something new for a PoC I was working on, and that wasn't al…

It's not theater, your IT department just isn't implementing it correctly. I recently switched jobs and gave up one macbook pro for another (work issued). Company A gave me sudo access and I could do anything I wanted. Company B locks down everything, no sudo, no brew, nothing. But I do get a big VM with root to do anything I want. There is an approved "appstore" of many different varieties of IDEs/tools. TLDR: Not h…

There is an app store here too, but lots of vital dev tools simply aren't in there. We should probably make sure they get added.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#650

Post by shawabawa3 »

kristov wrote: post #641

I think the conversation needs to change from "can't run software of our choice" to "can't participate in society without an apple or google account". I have been living with a de-googled android phone for a number of years, and it is getting harder and harder, while at the same time operating without certain "apps" is becoming more difficult. For example, by bank (abn amro) still allows online banking on desktop via…

> If you decide you don't want a relationship with either of those companies you will be extremely disadvantaged.

Even more worrying is the inverse of this - if Google and/or Apple decide for whatever reason they don't want a relationship with you (aka they ban you for no reason) - you are completely screwed

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