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I'd rather read the prompt

claytonwramsey.com

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Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#641

Post by tpmoney »

palata wrote: post #636
tpmoney wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We were talking about writing, not about vibe coding. We don't use calculators for writing. We don't use API requests for writing (except when we make an LLM write for us). We do however use them to summarize and transform data all the time. Consider the ever present spreadsheet. Huge amounts of data are thrown into spreadsheets and formulas are applied to that data to present us with graphs and statistics. You cou…

You seem to not make the difference between maths and, say, literature or history . Do you actually think that an LLM can take, say, a Harry Potter book as an input, and give it a grade in such a way that everybody will always agree on ? And to go further, do you actually use LLMs to generate graphs and statistics from spreadsheet? Because that is probably a bad idea given that there are tools that actually do it rig…

> Do you actually think that an LLM can take, say, a Harry Potter book as an input, and give it a grade in such a way that everybody will always agree on?

No, but I also don't think a human can do that either. Subjective things are subjective. I'm not sure I understand how this connects to the idea you expressed that doing various tasks with automation tools like LLMs prevent you from "internalizing" the data, or why not "internalizing" data is necessarily a bad thing. Am I just misunderstanding your concern?

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#642

Post by JCharante »

jama211 wrote: post #396
Animats wrote: post #28

That's because the instructor is asking questions that merely require the student to regurgitate the instructor's text. To actually teach this, you do something like this: "Here's a little dummy robot arm made out of Tinkertoys. There are three angular joints, a rotating base, a shoulder, and an elbow. Each one has a protractor so you can see the angle. 1. Figure out where the end of the arm will be based on those th…

Very well said. It’s a bad assignment! Is 1 student does something like this maybe they’re wrong, but if 90% of students are doing this, then IMO the assignment is wrong.

Or maybe 90% of students are destined for mediocrity.

One of the most fun classes I took in undergrad had people complaining about the professor’s teaching capabilities because it was too hard. We shouldn’t cater to the poor performers.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#643

Post by robotbikes »

Herring wrote: post #205
CuriouslyC wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Gemini pretty much exclusively for creative writing largely because the long context lets you fit an entire manuscript plus ancillary materials, so it can serve as a solid beta reader, and when you ask it to outline a chapter it is very good at taking the events preceding and following into account. It's hard to overstate the value of having a decent beta reader that can iteratively review your entire work in s…

Interesting. I think I'm a better editor so I use it as a writer, but it makes sense that it works the other way too for strong writers. Your way might even be better, since evaluating a text is likely easier than constructing a good text (Which is why your process worked even back with 3.5).

I have a horrible time editing my own work. Decision paralysis and what not, but I did have the idea that a good way to practice would be editing the content of LLM generated fictional narratives. I think the point that many are making that LLMs are useful as cognitive aids that augment thinking rather than replacements for thinking. They can be used to train your mind by inspiring thoughts you wouldn't have came up with on your own.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#644

Post by lgiordano_notte »

If you outsource that to a model, you often end up with words but shallow or no understanding. Writing forces you to clarify your ideas. LLMs substitute genuine thinking with surface-level prose, which might sound alright but often lacks depth behind it.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#645

Post by pjmlp »

Akronymus wrote: post #624
pjmlp wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is how many professionals are training in many European countries, and they still want a diploma to go with it. In many countries, regardless of how learning it was achieved, you still need a paper to prove that you actually did it. And in countries like Germany, better keep all those job evaluations close at heart because they get asked for as part of many job interview processes, additionally have them reviewe…

Techbically even those hidden phrases arent permitted by law, and you have the right to get those phrases removed/have it be turned into a basic evaluation (just from when to when + what job) The employers that do use those hidden phrases just hope they arent challenged/the employee doesnt notice. Thats also why most evaluations are entirely written in the superlative.

Unfortunely they are common enough to keep lawyers and book publishing businesses going with dictionaries "evaluation => real meaning", exactly for that little help to go though it and validate its correctness.

Many employeers profit from foreigners that aren't well versed in these nuances, and have to be educated this is a thing.

An example for others not used to German work market,

https://www.karriereakademie.de/arbeitszeugnis-formulierunge...

Just go through the site with your favourite translation tool.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#646

Post by Smaug123 »

cortesoft wrote: post #161
oncallthrow wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know if you have passed on your knowledge without knowing what your students think/know?

Sure, but my contention was more with the word “original”, because they aren’t really original thoughts. The teacher just wants to make sure the student’s thoughts contain the information they are teaching. The teacher isn’t looking for actual original thought in this test.

Teaching isn't blatting someone's mind with the Correct Answers and checking whether the overwrite took. Instead, you empirically build a model of the student's own world model, then examine the model to see where it fails to conform to reality, and construct ways to fix it. The example from TFA was consistent with "this is university coursework", which is fertile ground for a tutor to identify such errors! It's not like the student should be receiving a yes/no response and nothing else; there will presumably be comments on the incorrect answers.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#647

Post by walleeee »

lmm wrote: post #489
godelski wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are a society of ladder-pullers. I don't disagree, but often we complain about people pulling up ladders and when faced with the same decision we follow suit. Ultimately we can't change this behavior if no one is willing to defect from "conventional wisdom"

We can't fix the problem by making better choices as individuals, and exhorting people to do so saps energy and distracts. The system interprets integrity as damage and routes around it.

This attitude willingly donates what agency you have to the people and things trying to take it from you.

Lead by example. Mimicry is real, we all do it whether or not we are aware. Every node in the graph influences others. If you must exhort, it works better if you follow your own advice.

Of course, be discerning as you do this, and don't expend your energy or goodwill where it will be wasted. Be like Gandalf.

Any dogmatic system is fault-tolerant, in that it will "route around" some amount of internal dissent, but this does not make it impregnable.

The ruts in our minds steer us just as much as those in the ground. But earth turns and so can we.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#648

Post by microtonal »

animal_spirits wrote: post #424
rohansood15 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Students want the diploma because it has value. It has value because a student can only get it by learning and problem-solving. If students find a way to get a diploma without doing the work, it will soon be worth less than the paper on which it is printed.

Further, if a student can get a diploma without work, then the diploma does not have value anymore. If diplomas are no longer valuable, the signal they provide in the labor market will turn into noise. If employers no longer look for the diploma-signal in an employee, what will be the reason an employer will hire an employee? I think this story will become true, and society will radically shift into one where critica…

What becomes the signal then? Will we shift back into apprenticeship based employment? How do potential laborers display their critical thinking skills apart from displaying them in person?

This is already true to some extend. Not apprenticeship taking place of college, but the last couple of places I worked hiring generally happened based on: I already know this person from open source projects/working with them in a company/etc.

In certain companies, degrees were already unimportant even before LLMs because they generally do not provide a very good signal.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#649

Post by grumbelbart2 »

Akronymus wrote: post #624
pjmlp wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is how many professionals are training in many European countries, and they still want a diploma to go with it. In many countries, regardless of how learning it was achieved, you still need a paper to prove that you actually did it. And in countries like Germany, better keep all those job evaluations close at heart because they get asked for as part of many job interview processes, additionally have them reviewe…

Techbically even those hidden phrases arent permitted by law, and you have the right to get those phrases removed/have it be turned into a basic evaluation (just from when to when + what job) The employers that do use those hidden phrases just hope they arent challenged/the employee doesnt notice. Thats also why most evaluations are entirely written in the superlative.

"Missing" information is a huge red flag as well, though. If an Arbeitszeugnis only lists the dates and what the person worked on, and nothing about results or behavior, we would never invite them for an interview.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#650

Post by grumbelbart2 »

slics wrote: post #628
7bit wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has value because a student can only get it by learning and problem-solving. No. It has value, because companies value it. It sets the starting point for your first salary and then for every salary negotiation moving forward. As someone who did not go to university, but has the same knowledge self-taught I can tell you that this piece of paper would have opened so many doors and made life so much easier. It took…

You forgot one big reward with your approach. You are not 200k in debt which will take that kid with diploma to get that piece of paper. You are debt free. I am not arguing on the merit of having a diploma is a bad thing - the colleges these days have turned their backs on the people as well. Average $100k to get a piece of paper (LLMs are not the issue here the useless degrees that the colleges offer). Invest that $…

While you are fully right, that is very US-centric. Tuition is practically free in large parts of Europe, for example.
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