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The Burnout Machine

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Re: The Burnout Machine

#641

Post by milesrout »

nekochanwork wrote: post #530

I am an engineering manager for a large team of developers. Part of my job is to estimate the cost and potential revenue of big projects. I have a spreadsheet of everyone's salaries (including bonus compensation, other perks). I've done the math at my own company: average developer salary is approximately $100k. Our largest teams have 10 developers, so about $1M in labor costs. These teams work on projects that bring…

The income of the company is not the "fruits of the labour" of the people that work there. There is no logical connection there.

You don't "create" all the value just because you work there.

Also the total cost of employment is much higher than salaries, and there are big overheads in any business that aren't wages.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#642

Post by namaria »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #635
namaria wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turns out when your work is thinking, you end up thinking a lot about the alienation of your labor's fruits. Burnout isn't about pace of work or ability to take vacations. Burnout is about a disconnect between effort, meaning, and rewards.

What is “the alienation of your labor's fruits.”? I haven’t heard of any way for objectively measuring the value of anything, or whether that is even a logically coherent concept.

> I haven’t heard of any way for objectively measuring the value of anything

Really?

Re: The Burnout Machine

#643

Post by stared »

AndyKelley wrote: post #330
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

This is the kicker: > How many of us have been forced to work on projects that make us sick to our stomachs - surveillance tech, data mining tools, algorithms that reinforce social biases - because we don’t have the power to say no? Those unprivileged people that you're trying to compare tech workers to, in order to undermine this manifesto, are exactly those who are harmed by dark patterns. Anyway that's besides the…

> How many of us have been forced to work on projects that make us sick to our stomachs - surveillance tech, data mining tools, algorithms that reinforce social biases - because we don’t have the power to say no?

This is also a point that is not only in the range of "lack of perspective" but actively dishonest. Yes, you can say "no," - which is not true for occupations with codified career paths (medicine, academia, law, military) and all jobs in which you literally cannot afford 2 months to search for a job.

I turned down quite a few offers in markets that (according to my beliefs) I feel are harming the world. Yes, it means turning down offers with 2x salary. Just because there is a temptation does not mean we must follow it.

> Your profile says "Co-founder and CTO" which means you are biased against unions

Bolt to assume that. I had a start-up for 2.5 years. Before that (and now), I worked freelance consulting and contract work.

In any case, I am based in Europe and believe in the European approach to social security, healthcare, free education, and minimal wage. I vote for parties that opt for higher taxes to support such.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#644

Post by stared »

cyrnel wrote: post #131
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

There's no reason why tech unions can't have solidarity with other unionization efforts (and there are thousands of reason why we should have that solidarity). Us tech workers could be leveraging the privilege we have to get better conditions for everyone. A perfect example is non-compete clauses. Tech workers enjoy high job mobility, which is only hindered by non-competes. It's no accident that major tech hubs were…

> Us tech workers could be leveraging the privilege we have to get better conditions for everyone.

Yes.

A bit of context here: I am European and take for granted many things related to social safety (healthcare, benefits, parental leave, or various sorts) and equal opportunity (free education, public transportation, etc.). Many views of Bernie Sanders are mainstream by European standards (vide https://www.quora.com/How-far-to-the-left-is-Bernie-Sanders-...).

Yet, in Poland, there are various lower taxes for software engineers (and some other similar professionals). I don't consider it fair. Yes, many people feel that they work hard (and they do!) or that their friends earn even more.

But at the same time, it takes talking with anyone in education, retail, or care to see that what is considered unacceptable pay for any IT job is, for many, a dream salary. While inequality is not nearly as enormous as in the US, it is still.

So yes, if these are system changes that benefit all workers - wonderful!

> A perfect example is non-compete clauses.

Yes.

In Europe, you are often paid by the previous employer if you have such a clause. So, it only makes sense in a reasonable case where you could directly pass know-how on to the competitors. But not as a leash.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#645

Post by MichaelZuo »

namaria wrote: post #642
MichaelZuo wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is “the alienation of your labor's fruits.”? I haven’t heard of any way for objectively measuring the value of anything, or whether that is even a logically coherent concept.

> I haven’t heard of any way for objectively measuring the value of anything Really?

If you know of some way that is logically coherent, and can demonstrate it via standard proof notation, then you should definitely publish it.

And become the most famous human being to have ever existed…

Re: The Burnout Machine

#646

Post by mancerayder »

BeetleB wrote: post #115
legitster wrote: post #34

This write up sounds like it describes a very particular subset of companies. If you only want to work at the flashy unicorns in downtown San Francisco, you are signing yourself up for exploitation. Like any career, if you get off the beaten path there are plenty of pretty okay jobs out there. Especially if you have a marketable skill. This is software, if you have a brain and functional hands - you already own the m…

> This write up sounds like it describes a very particular subset of companies Indeed. 80 hours a week (or even 60): Never had to deal with that in over a decade across 3 jobs. In fact, I've never had to work a weekend (and if I did, it was either to fix my own screwup, or because I intentionally slacked off during the week and needed to make up for it). Slack/email off work hours? Just ask up front in the interview:…

Incredible idealism. If you work in infrastructure, even development, there's no such thing as shutting down at the end of the day or weekends. 'You never know' if someone senior gets agitated off hours because something is broken, and is expecting a big group on a zoom call

Re: The Burnout Machine

#647

Post by rhubarbtree »

namaria wrote: post #611
Mo3 wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure many of us have figured this out, it's just that there's no alternative for most. I live in Europe and we are all unionized and I hate to break it to you but we're still creating much more value than we earn for someone else. Our work conditions may be significantly better - I work 40h/week with unlimited vacation (within reason ofc) and sick days - yet still burnout happens frequently and necessitates costl…

Turns out when your work is thinking, you end up thinking a lot about the alienation of your labor's fruits. Burnout isn't about pace of work or ability to take vacations. Burnout is about a disconnect between effort, meaning, and rewards.

I disagree.

Burnout is caused by your body running on adrenaline and cortisol for too long as you’re pushing past what is sustainable. Eventually your body says - enough! And it forces you to stop.

The _symptom_ of burnout are as you describe: essentially you no long see the point of what you’re doing.

Speculatively, I believe the drop in motivation is your body’s way of stopping you pushing it any further. It’s a defence mechanism.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#648

Post by rhubarbtree »

stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

Academia is a much easier, low productivity, self-interested career than engineering in my experience. Most academics claim they work hard but have very poor time management and work intensely in short periods whilst taking huge amounts of holiday and flexible time off. Most universities are empty during the summer months. Even at top tier universities in the UK I was shocked how absent people were around anything remotely close to a holiday period.

In the commercial world you have to sing for your supper, as PG put it, and that is much much harder.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#649

Post by rhubarbtree »

getnormality wrote: post #156
woah wrote: post #107

For some reason this sounds AI-written, especially this paragraph: > Companies love to brag about their innovation, but the real innovation is finding new ways to make us disposable. Permanent employment? That’s for suckers. Why pay benefits and offer job security when they can churn through contractors and freelancers like cheap code? And don’t get me started on those non-compete clauses - designed to keep you locke…

I was scrolling the comments waiting for someone to say this. And it was this same paragraph where the GPT smell got overwhelming. LLMs love punchy but meaningless metaphors (how are contractors and freelancers like cheap code? what is cheap code?) and punchy but generic turns of phrase ("that's for suckers", "let's get real for a minute", "don't get me started"). It reminds me of when Elon Musk used to show off how…

100% had the same reaction and Grok came straight to mind. Either it’s an AI or the writer can’t write. Terrible article.

Interesting topic though - hopefully people responded without reading it. We don’t want more AI trash on HN. A lot of the comments are already clearly AI written / edited.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#650

Post by rhubarbtree »

buildbot wrote: post #293
rockemsockem wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard of hours like that outside of early high-growth startups. Have worked at FAANG and know many people who've worked at many of the FAANG companies. Seems made up tbh

I’ve worked 80 hours in a week at Microsoft; before a paper deadline. After though, I was able to work less and regain balance. It’s certainly not unheard of before any kind of deadline at many companies.

I think we should normalise talking about average (median) working hours, not the extremes. I probably worked 100+ hours on paper deadlines, but working 60 hours in startups is about my sustainable limit, and when coding it’s more like 45. People lie about their average working hours so much. If you listen carefully, it usually becomes apparent that their claims are physically impossible, eg they mention that they went to the gym each evening when the hours imply they should have been working. Generally, anyone who states above 55 hours should be treated sceptically.
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