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Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

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Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#641

Post by halyconWays »

rob74 wrote: post #498
exabrial wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother in law, aviation firefighter, said after a crash you have 15s to egress, that's it. There's not a lot of air in the metal tube you're trapped in, it'll fill with smoke and everyone will be disoriented. It's also a long way to the exits, and the average person in the exit row probably will be in shock and likely not operate the exit door immediately. Absolutely incredible the fireball was put out in the fli…

The standard time for evacuating an aircraft that has to be demonstrated for certification purposes is 90 seconds with only half of the exits usable. It generally helps that the fire is (at least initially) outside the cabin most of the time. But yes, I wouldn't bet on conditions in the plane staying survivable for 90 seconds in all cases.

Sounds like plenty of time for me to get my bag, pull out my phone, and start texting

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#642

Post by madaxe_again »

unregistereddev wrote: post #621
eknkc wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why were they filming? Was there an early warning? Was it a sketchy landing in any case? I mean aircraft are fascinating and people film them all the time but wouldn’t expect a pilot sitting in another one to casually film landings. Maybe just an extremely lucky catch.

Lots of pilots know each other and will sometimes film each other's landings just for fun. The original idea was probably along the lines of "Bill's coming in and I have a good angle on it, let's take a video and send it to him." Landing is the hardest part of piloting an airplane and many pilots take pride in their ability to land smoothly. Slight tangent, if you are on an airplane that lands smoothly despite bad we…

I saw the footage, and wondered if perhaps he knew he had a buddy filming him, and there was a “watch this” going on, decided to flare as late as possible, and he just flared… well, stick up after you hit the deck like a sack of potatoes doesn’t do much for you.

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#643

Post by [deleted] »

hassleblad23 wrote: post #593
singleshot_ wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retention of agency carries a benefit you’re not calculating

You don't have agency over other drivers on the road and they might cause an accident without any fault of yours. That issue is (almost) entirely avoided by planes.

[deleted]

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#644

Post by thehappypm »

Ylpertnodi wrote: post #419
TimByte wrote: post #341

Major respect to the first responders and passengers who helped each other

...and those that made sure they took their hand-carries off with them. Nb: I do know that the actual condition of 'shock' will sometimes induce irrational behaviour.

Is it possible that it was actually safer to grab it? Like if these items were stowed under your seat, then the plane flipped and now they’re in the “aisle”. Maybe picking it up actually clears the path? Maybe leaving it behind causes someone else to stumble?

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#645

Post by darkwizard42 »

theultdev wrote: post #589
theossuary wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an American plane, serviced and maintained by an American company, and flown by an American airline. Pretty sure they're referring to that.

Pretty sure the wind doesn't care about what country the plane is from. Seems to me it was either unavoidable or Canadian air traffic control shouldn't have let them land in those conditions. Nothing to do with Trump or the FAA, as much as people would like it to be. Never let a crisis go to waste I guess?

The FAA will actually fully investigate this as the issue COULD be due to pilot error or equipment failure. So it is still potentially an issue outside of the weather.

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#646

Post by mrandish »

jonasdegendt wrote: post #481
lqet wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were once landing on Madeira, one of the most dangerous airports in the world. Even a nice landing there is quite uncomfortable. For some time you fly very close to the ocean, heading straight into the cliffs, and only in the last moment the plane seems to make a right turn to approach the runway. We made a wobbly touchdown, people already wanted to get up, when suddenly the plane was again lifted a few meters and…

Your description of the landing reminds me of the old Hong Kong Kai Tak airport approach. You basically had to fly straight over the city, high rise buildings straight ahead, and bank right as hard as the plane would let you at just the right time to hit the runway. Outside perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKqO6gdJIz8 Cockpit view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx3Ccs5tKfw

Flying into old Kai Tak as a passenger was just insane, especially in a cross-wind and if you had a view out both sides of the plane. You'd see low buildings and streets under the plane with buildings much taller than the plane very close on both sides. Then immediately have to start side-crabbing as the buildings thinned out once over the airport fence line. And you'd never not be paying close attention because of the hard wing-over turn right before the final dive into the airport. Felt like that shot in Star Wars of the X-Wing dive rotating into the Death Star trench.

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#647

Post by xenadu02 »

exabrial wrote: post #487
leetrout wrote: post #449

Clear view from the plane waiting to take off https://www.reddit.com/r/CatastrophicFailure/comments/1isabt... Which also brings into mind cockpit distractions but its amazing they caught this on video.

My brother in law, aviation firefighter, said after a crash you have 15s to egress, that's it. There's not a lot of air in the metal tube you're trapped in, it'll fill with smoke and everyone will be disoriented. It's also a long way to the exits, and the average person in the exit row probably will be in shock and likely not operate the exit door immediately. Absolutely incredible the fireball was put out in the fli…

I say this half-jokingly:

If you're going to rip a wing off do it as early in the crash as possible so momentum will carry you past the fuel/fireball.

If fire develops when you've almost or completely stopped you are now involved in the fire and the fatality rate goes up dramatically.

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#649

Post by [deleted] »

542354234235 wrote: post #544
varjag wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lowkey mad at the lady dragging her hand luggage.

“We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training” – Archilochus People like to imagine how they would act in an extreme situation that is unique and beyond anything they have ever experienced before. But the reality is people do very poorly most of the time without regular training. In a crash, the adrenaline is flooding your body, and most people are not “thinking” much at all. Y…

[deleted]

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#650

Post by dredmorbius »

rtkwe wrote: post #517
arrowsmith wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably it helped that they crashed into a thick pile of snow in freezing conditions - I imagine that would slow the spread of the fire. But still, that’s astonishing footage in the Reddit post linked above. Incredible that no one died.

Also the wing broke off early so the plane continued away from the initial fireball.

And the fuel spilled both away from the fuselage and onto snow, which both kept the main focus of the fire away from people and limited development of the fireball as well.

Kerosene (Jet-A) is relatively nonvolatile and tends to burn most violently when dispersed in air. It's not quite as heavy as diesel fuel, in which you can extinguish a lit match, but conditions in this incident probably limited flame development considerably.

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