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Why Canada Should Join the EU

economist.com

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Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#641

Post by aprilthird2021 »

3vidence wrote: post #526
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't the true problem. The old and new immigrants aren't even really that different. They are mostly from India like they were for the past 15-ish years and more. The real true difference is that the economy and job market flipped, and now there are layoffs, fierce job competition, and inflation. That type of environment makes people generally jealous and angry at others, and so there is a new focus on immigran…

Like you just have to look at the distribution of immigration across different countries in the past 10 years to see that this isn't correct. It was not the norm that 60% of all immigration was from a single country... Additionally immigration has objectively increased at a time of large unemployment which used to not be allowed until the current government lifted the restriction on 6% unemployment. You can have a mi…

It is not 60% from a single country, and it's not been that rapid of a change.

Here's the stats for you:

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/12-581-x/2023001/sec2-en...

Asian origin (all of Asia including China and India) has been the dominant origin for immigration to Canada since 2006, and it has only changed from ~40% to ~50% since then.

India alone accounted for 27% of immigrants admitted to Canada on a temporary basis in 2022: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/co...

Now we can stick to the facts? Will you accept the facts or no?

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#642

Post by aprilthird2021 »

tsimionescu wrote: post #634
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of Europe has ethnic strife and tensions. Bosnian / Serbian. Czech / Slovak (until recently). Spain has its breakaway ethnic movements. Ireland like others mentioned is a close analogue.

Bosnia, Serbia, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic are all separate countries today. Of course, not all Bosnians, Serbs, Slovak, and Czechs live in the respective nation states, and there is still strife. But I still fail to grasp what, say, the Czech Republic could learn about how to treat its Slovak minority from how Canada trays its First Nations minorities. Should different Slovak communities in the Czech Republic…

From reading the article, it is about reconciliation. Canada makes a lot of public official gestures to the people who suffered at the hands of the government. Such overtures could help in European countries where ethnic strife still exists.

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#643

Post by tsimionescu »

Yawrehto wrote: post #514
gpm wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh... I think that position is largely derived from treaties guaranteeing that, and a local history of severe mistreatment. I don't know much at all about how the Sami have been treated in the nordic countries, but I doubt it's a particularly similar situation.

Oh it very much has been. Things like forced assimilation were very much employed against Sami, as well as (in the UK) Celtic peoples, (Ireland) the Irish, France (Bretons) and others, seemingly mostly in Eastern Europe. And, while not indigenous, Jews and Romani have faced centuries of on-and-off slaughter, forced assimilation/conversion, expulsion, etc., culminating in the Holocaust. And that's just off the top of…

Looking at history is not that relevant to the discussion at hand. As far as I know, the Saami today are no longer being forcibly assimilated or otherwise genocided. Is there anything related to how the First Nations are treated that the Finns should apply to the Saami? Perhaps some regional autonomy could be better, if that's not really happening.

The other examples (Irish, Bretons, Welsh etc) I would argue live significantly better and have significantly more practical rights today than First Nations people do in Canada.

As for the Jewish people and Romani, the fact that they are not indigenous people makes it impossible to apply any lessons from Canada. It's not possible, or even desirable in any way, to create any autonomous Jewish/Romani regions, because that would imply forcibly displacing people. These people generally live intermingled with others in the states they inhabit, at most living in concentrated neighborhoods part of larger cities. And otherwise, their languages and cultural practices are already legally protected in the EU (with some major tensions around one particular Romani cultural practice, child marriages). This is not to say that there isn't anti-Roma and anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe, unfortunately there is plenty, but the situation is so significantly different from the First Nations of Canada that there are few, if any, lessons to learn.

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#644

Post by tsimionescu »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #642
tsimionescu wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bosnia, Serbia, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic are all separate countries today. Of course, not all Bosnians, Serbs, Slovak, and Czechs live in the respective nation states, and there is still strife. But I still fail to grasp what, say, the Czech Republic could learn about how to treat its Slovak minority from how Canada trays its First Nations minorities. Should different Slovak communities in the Czech Republic…

From reading the article, it is about reconciliation. Canada makes a lot of public official gestures to the people who suffered at the hands of the government. Such overtures could help in European countries where ethnic strife still exists.

That would make sense, indeed. It's true that a lot of European countries have a great deal of difficulty in admitting to their past crimes very loudly, even if they technically do recognize them officially.

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#645

Post by eastbound »

buzzert wrote: post #320
eastbound wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are only two countries on Earth that have a lot of physical space and expanding economies. As you admit, “The US has its own problems”, so it is not successful, and Australia too. So it is never welcomed by citizen, both the lowly and the H1B-level. Also what do you mean with “lot of physical space”… May I remind you that this space is empty because, in both country, we have killed the locals. I’m afraid you ar…

> As you admit, “The US has its own problems”, so it is not successful That's not at all what I was saying. I believe the US is wildly successful in integrating immigrants, since it is a nation of immigrants after all. Even the native population, which, despite what you said, was not entirely "killed". The indigenous population today owns a significant portion of land in the US and many tribes benefit significantly f…

I know that you sincerely believe in mixing up everyone in the same bag, but there are several bags. USA is no more successful than Europe at mixing immigrants. But USA has chosen for a long time that its immigrants were Irish, for example. And was mostly unsuccessful at integrating Mexicans, a lot of whom aren’t even given documents. What’s the difference between an Irish immigrant and an Algerian immigrant? I’ll leave it to your imagination but you can take all of the criminals from one population, the worst ones, ship them on a desert island, and you get Australia. While you can take all the best people from the other, give them wealth and infrastructure, schools and culture, and not have a single one that contributes to the home country.

USA has been successful at integrating the first kind, and the second one has just performed a nice illustration of their skills in New Orleans, like they do in my home country every year, and now every month, and one even said yesterday “We will rape all French people.”

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#646

Post by argsnd »

rayiner wrote: post #576
kypro wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The left-wing party in the UK has only just won its largest majority in history and we don't have another election for 5 years. That is largely because the right has split into populist right and centre-right parties though.

Labour won the election, but Starmer’s approval rating is already down to 27% after just six months. https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/dissatisfaction-starmer-reaches-... . That’s not surprising given that Labour got half a million fewer votes than it did in 2019, when it lost in a landslide, but won anyway because of infighting among the right wing. That’s what I meant when I said nationalists have rendered ruling parties…

There was an objective left-of-centre majority in the 2024 UK election if you combine vote shares of all left-of-centre parties. The combined right managed only 38% vote share.

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#647

Post by argsnd »

OJFord wrote: post #519
kypro wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The left-wing party in the UK has only just won its largest majority in history and we don't have another election for 5 years. That is largely because the right has split into populist right and centre-right parties though.

Yes that's what GP is describing. Fractured Conservative party with splinters that can't command a majority.

The combined right did not get remotely close to a majority. The combined left did.

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#648

Post by bawolff »

remarkEon wrote: post #629
mensetmanusman wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is sad because the government knew and failed to act on 5x-ing the rate of housing production to keep up with new arrivals. Failing to do so has screwed over so many people due to housing costs that went up due to mass migration. This was all predicted though if that makes anyone feel better.

Housing isn't the only thing that "solves" immigration issues. The immigrants have to, you know, assimilate. For whatever reason this step has been deleted from the usual policy matrix, and as a result we've been running a great experiment over the last 20+ years in Canada, Europe, and the US.

I personally don't believe lack of assimilation is a siginificant driver of anti-immigrant sentiment in canada at present.

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#649

Post by bawolff »

cman1444 wrote: post #543
bawolff wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm no? There is (sadly) a significant anti-immigration backlash right now in canada. Its a core election issue and one of the main reasons trudeau is likely going to lose the next election.

Did you mean to respond to the parent comment? The comment you're responding to gives credit to the author for acknowledging recent anti-immigration sentiment in Canada.

No, i responded to the comment i meant to. I don't think "frayed" is an accurate assesment given the liberal polling numbers are in the toilet and this seems to be the election issue causing that.

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#650

Post by bawolff »

roncesvalles wrote: post #460
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Frayed” is an understatement though: Canada has swung clearly in the anti-immigration camp over the last 4 or so years, maybe longer? It is to the point that Trump might actually be popular in Canada now just because of anti immigration sentiment alone.

Online, hate appears far more amplified than it is in the outside world. In the real world, yes there are places teeming with immigrants and international students, but you drive a block and turn a corner, and "it's Canada again". You lose that nuance in the online world where all you see is 10 seconds of a 120 degree window into some parking lot somewhere where immigrants happened to have gathered. If you watch a vi…

Polls suggest 58% of canadians want less immigrants. That is up by 17% in 2 years. Those numbers are quite concerning. https://www.environicsinstitute.org/projects/project-details...

However i don't think its because people hate immigrants. I think its because conservatives managed to link it to the housing crisis, which is something canadians care a lot about, and neither liberals or ndp have had an effective come back to that.

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