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Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

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Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#641

> The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immu…

This isn’t conservatism. It’s despotism.

We’re probably a decade away from a coup.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#642

Article III of the U.S. Constitution is incredibly brief [1]. I propose the Supreme Court be reconstituted such that for each case a panel of judges from the appellate courts is chosen by lot. They hear that case, write their opinion, and then go back to that work. New case, new lot. Having a permanent bench of judicial oligarchs made sense before telecommunication. It doesn’t anymore. Every ancient democracy used ra…

The lifetime appointment of Supreme Court justices is done specifically so that they aren't financially influenced by politics and party.

I.e. their job doesn't depend on them ruling the "right" way.

There are pros and cons to different approaches. There are differences at the state level for judges, being appointed vs elected. Each has problems. In TX, for example, judges are heavily influenced by mob mentality - they're afraid to practice sentencing restraint because next election their rival will run ads saying they love murderers/rapists/whatever because they let someone off lightly in extraordinary circumstances.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#643

> The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immu…

Killing an American citizen without due process should be outside the scope of official acts regardless of whether the President has immunity for said acts. Obama proved that it's not [0], which is a major problem that should have been addressed a long time before this ruling.

On the whole the principle of this ruling is sound:

The President shouldn't be in a position where he has to wonder before each choice if he'll later be prosecuted for it or not. The boundaries of official acts should be spelled out clearly in the law, and when acting within those boundaries the President should be confident that he's authorized to make the tough calls.

The ambiguities that this ruling brings to light were already there, this ruling only exposes them. President Obama could theoretically have been personally prosecuted for killing al-Awlaki and now he can't.

Now it's time for us to explicitly identify in the laws what the President can and cannot do. That's a change that's long overdue.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#644

Surely the "impeachment exists" arguments are in bad faith. Otherwise, I'm convinced they've abandoned reason. Impeachment process takes time, and in that window, the president can do whatever. POTUS can even mobilize the army (an official power) to block congress from meeting, since apparently the motive behind the use of official power doesn't matter. If they can't meet, how are they going to impeach.

If a president is illegally mobilizing an army I'm not sure how this ruling would change anything? Do you think congress would be slower than courts to work this out? If a president was stopping congress from meeting then they could stop courts from meeting as well. Or he could just ignore the courts if it had really gotten that bad...

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its more like "immunity for any action within the realm of presidential power, regardless of motive or criminality". Accepting a bribe in exchange for a pardon would be A-ok on the basis that pardoning is a “conclusive and preclusive” authority of the president. > The opposite holding, where they are liable for everything, would be untenable. Literally no one was arguing for this and there are much more reasonable in…

No, the act undertaken in exchange for the bribe would be under the immunity umbrella but the act of taking the bribe would not.

We just established last week that obviously the bribe would come after the official act, making it a gratuity and thus free and clear of any whiff of wrongdoing.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't agree with the strikes, such action was generally authorized by Congress (thanks to the "war on terror") which was never since rescinded by Congress. So was not unconstitutional.

The constitution clearly says that a declaration of war is needed, and only short periods of action that are necessary in the interim can be taken by the president absent that. Congress does not have the authority to simply pass a law invalidating that. They did it, but it is most certainly not constitutional.

> Congress does not have the authority to simply pass a law invalidating that. They did it, but it is most certainly not constitutional.

The ones that should judge if it's not constitutional just passed judgment stating that a ex-president is above the law. I think they can invalidate if a president explicitly needs declaration of war, given recent history I'd bet a lot they would find it totally constitutional.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#647

Article III of the U.S. Constitution is incredibly brief [1]. I propose the Supreme Court be reconstituted such that for each case a panel of judges from the appellate courts is chosen by lot. They hear that case, write their opinion, and then go back to that work. New case, new lot. Having a permanent bench of judicial oligarchs made sense before telecommunication. It doesn’t anymore. Every ancient democracy used ra…

As with all reforms in the US it's not gonna happen as the party that benefits will block it. Same with implementing ranked choice, outlawing gerrymandering, campaign finance reform, etc. Systems always work to justify and perpetuate themselves. It's part of why our jobs can be such BS sometimes.

> it's not gonna happen as the party that benefits will block it

The right and left are both railing against our justice system. At different levels. For different reasons. But that’s political capital on the floor.

> Same with implementing ranked choice

We have multiple jurisdictions with RCV [1]. Your purported impossibility has happened.

> Systems always work to justify and perpetuate themselves

We have reformed our courts before in pursuit of seeking to perpetuate our American form of government. This is no different. Amending governments to make them more fit is not inherently in conflict with institutional prerogatives.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_...

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#648

Article III of the U.S. Constitution is incredibly brief [1]. I propose the Supreme Court be reconstituted such that for each case a panel of judges from the appellate courts is chosen by lot. They hear that case, write their opinion, and then go back to that work. New case, new lot. Having a permanent bench of judicial oligarchs made sense before telecommunication. It doesn’t anymore. Every ancient democracy used ra…

This, plus the opinions should not be signed, and dissenting opinions should not be published at all. The current system seems like it’s designed to aggravate politics in the very branch that’s intended to be beyond them.

Dissenting opinions are a crucial part of the process. They're frequently cited by lower courts and in future supreme court cases.

The supremes don't always get it right. Dissenting opinions are the mechanism for expressing that reality.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#649

Article III of the U.S. Constitution is incredibly brief [1]. I propose the Supreme Court be reconstituted such that for each case a panel of judges from the appellate courts is chosen by lot. They hear that case, write their opinion, and then go back to that work. New case, new lot. Having a permanent bench of judicial oligarchs made sense before telecommunication. It doesn’t anymore. Every ancient democracy used ra…

Prediction: trump wins presidency. Midterms swing hard towards Dems. Next president's Congress reforms supreme court.

Prediction: Trump wins presidency and there are no more fair elections.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#650

> The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immu…

Assassinating a political rival is not an official act.

Here is Justice Roberts’s definition of an official act. Since the courts are making it a new executive power, it’s in the eye of the wielder. Long live the king.

> In a unanimous decision written by Chief Justice John Roberts, the Court held that, under Section 201(a)(3):

> [A]n “official act” is a decision or action on a “question, matter, cause, suit, proceeding or controversy.” The “question, matter, cause, suit, proceeding or controversy” must involve a formal exercise of governmental power that is similar in nature to a lawsuit before a court, a determination before an agency, or a hearing before a committee. It must also be something specific and focused that is “pending” or “may by law be brought” before a public official. To qualify as an “official act,” the public official must make a decision or take an action on that “question, matter, cause, suit, proceeding or controversy,” or agree to do so. That decision or action may include using his official position to exert pressure on another official to perform an “official act,” or to advise another official, knowing or intending that such advice will form the basis for an “official act” by another official. Setting up a meeting, talking to another official, or organizing an event (or agreeing to do so)—without more—does not fit that definition of “official act.”

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