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Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

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641–650 of 712 posts

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an issue of scale. Similar to police tracking phones. Police have always been able to assign an officer to follow a suspect, but it’s expensive and therefore rarely done. If insurance companies can cheaply inspect everyone’s house from space, the end result will be to lower prices for people with homes in perfect condition and raise them for everyone else. This is potentially problematic because the people with…

Why is it not a good thing if insurance is more accurately priced? Insurance isn't a redistribution mechanism. And dilapidated roofs aren't a social good. Municipalities have actual redistribution schemes to make these kinds of repairs. I'll note that there's nothing at all redistributive about sneaking a trampoline onto your property, too. Further, I'll note that working class people also take pride in their houses…

> Insurance isn't a redistribution mechanism

That's exactly what insurance is. The whole premise is that they will dip into other people's payments to pay you if you ever encounter a covered issue. If insurance only ever paid you back some fraction X of your own contributions, why would you ever buy it? It would make infinitely more sense to deposit whatever you would have paid to insurance in a high yield savings account.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it not a good thing if insurance is more accurately priced? Insurance isn't a redistribution mechanism. And dilapidated roofs aren't a social good. Municipalities have actual redistribution schemes to make these kinds of repairs. I'll note that there's nothing at all redistributive about sneaking a trampoline onto your property, too. Further, I'll note that working class people also take pride in their houses…

> Insurance isn't a redistribution mechanism That's exactly what insurance is. The whole premise is that they will dip into other people's payments to pay you if you ever encounter a covered issue. If insurance only ever paid you back some fraction X of your own contributions, why would you ever buy it? It would make infinitely more sense to deposit whatever you would have paid to insurance in a high yield savings ac…

Read downthread for repeated explanations of how insurance works. You know you're in trouble when you profess shock that insurance has negative expected dollar value.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#643
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently started going through many big data collectors and expressing my rights to know, delete, and stop selling my information. Verisk makes the process notoriously difficult compared to other companies, you have to start an "ethics" report in their ticketing system https://secure.ethicspoint.com/domain/media/en/gui/69464/ind...

Real question: is something like aerial photography of your roof really subject to privacy laws?

Why is that the real question? Shouldn't the real question be: do we want, as a society, to allow something like arial photography of your roof freely accessible to data brokers so that they can form a shadow profile of you and determine how much you pay for insurance?

That a law against such a practice does or does not exist today is rather besides the point.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whose value would go to zero at any time No, it wouldn't. It would go down to the value of the land (where a construction is permitted). Nowadays, that's often more than 90% of the price.

Woah, where can you buy a house that 90% of the money you spend is land? Is that even true in expensive downtown US cities like SF and NYC? Construction is pretty expensive too.

My home has pretty much 80% of its value as land. And it's not in a anormally expensive location in my city.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it not a good thing if insurance is more accurately priced? Another poster here, Scoundreller, recently responded to one of my comments on another topic with this insight: > The funny thing about insurance is that as it becomes perfect at assessing risk, it becomes worthless. > Oh, you’re about to have a $x claim this year, your premium is $x + y% admin fee. > Just self insure and save yourself the y%. There…

That argument is silly because it misunderstands what "risk" means both in an insurance context and in general. Yes, if you could 100% guarantee that someone was going to have a $Y valued claim, their premium would fairly be 100% of $Y at least in order to allow for their contribution to the risk pool. Problem is, you cannot 100% predict the future, and there is no model capable of doing so, nor will there likely eve…

> the insurer won't rate your premium at the cost of risk X; it will simply exclude risk X from your policy and rate your premium

Which makes it odd that there are people who can't get insurance at all because of one factor like a tree or a roof. Instead of these companies (rightly or not) excluding those risks they're just dropping the customers or refusing to insure them.

> Problem is, you cannot 100% predict the future, and there is no model capable of doing so, nor will there likely ever be.

As insurance companies get more data about you from constant surveillance and data brokers it's possible for them to assume things with far more certainty. Worse, they don't seem to care too much about accuracy either. Your health insurance could cost you more next year because data shows more people in your zip code are spending more time in fast food drive thru lanes. People have had their DNA leaked! Predicting the future (accurately or not) is getting easier every day.

> This already happens, incidentally; travel insurance policies will exclude pre-existing conditions or recurrences of previous illnesses as a matter of course

I think that's reasonable for things that nearly certain to happen. It's easy to exclude cancer in a travel insurance policy and still provide some value. It's a lot less likely when it comes to something like flood insurance where your house either floods or it doesn't, although there are certainly houses in places that flood so regularly that they shouldn't be insurable at all and no one should live there. There's a balance that's difficult to strike because the incentive is for insurers to drop anyone who has any real risk.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why you have re-insurance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinsurance If the final insurer is the government, you don't have the risk of ruin because you have control of the money printer.

Reinsurance isn’t magic. This helps with one-off losses, but if you’re fundamentally not able to make a profit, they’re not going to cover you, because all you’ve done is shift the negative expected value to them.

It also probably increases

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why you have re-insurance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinsurance If the final insurer is the government, you don't have the risk of ruin because you have control of the money printer.

Reinsurance isn’t magic. This helps with one-off losses, but if you’re fundamentally not able to make a profit, they’re not going to cover you, because all you’ve done is shift the negative expected value to them.

It also probably increases the odds of total ruin... think a Katrina or an Andrew but a bit worse. On a smaller scale, it's never gonna be just one car in a town with hail damage.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#648
post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand how states like California don’t understand basic economics.

California is one of the capitalistic states out there. But they have politicians, government, regulation, like any other state. Insurers are also rapidly leaving Florida, so it might not just be about regulation, or those two states do lots of regulation, or something in between.

FL here. Florida was hit by a wave of roofing fraud. They are changing out the laws (which will make sense).

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#649
post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eh, or without regulation when people switch risk categories due to a loss they get completely screwed because no company will insure them anymore. This only happens when regulations cap premiums, because otherwise there is always a rate at which selling insurance is profitable. Even if you have a 50% risk of a claim (extremely high), you'd still be able to buy $100,000 in insurance for a little over $50,000. Of co…

Hard to ‘refrain’ from buying health insurance in the middle of cancer treatment eh? Or ‘refrain’ from buying house insurance because someone tripped in your house and is suing you for $1M worth of damages, or you discovered your house was built in a high risk fire zone. Or ‘refrain’ from buying vehicle insurance after an accident because the state will not let you drive without valid insurance. That’s the whole poin…

> Hard to ‘refrain’ from buying health insurance in the middle of cancer treatment eh?

The thing you're insuring against in this case is a cancer diagnosis. If you're insured when that happens, the insurance company should now be on the hook for your lifetime worth of cancer treatment regardless of whether you pay them any more premiums. That isn't how we implement it, the existing regulations don't work like that, but that's how it would work if what you were buying was actually insurance. The insurer eats the cost at the point when the unknown risk becomes known.

> Or ‘refrain’ from buying house insurance because someone tripped in your house and is suing you for $1M worth of damages

You don't have to buy liability insurance if you own your house. Of course, then if your negligence injures someone they're going to get the house instead of the insurance company's money, but that's up to you. And can be avoided in either event by not giving people valid legal claims against you.

Notice that a single claim is generally not enough to make insurance unaffordable, and multiple large valid claims is generally a sign that you're doing something wrong.

> or you discovered your house was built in a high risk fire zone.

It's not the insurance company's fault that you bought a house without checking what it would cost to insure. The cost of insuring houses there is supposed to be high, to deter people from building them there.

> Or ‘refrain’ from buying vehicle insurance after an accident because the state will not let you drive without valid insurance.

So you take the bus or move to a walkable neighborhood. What's your alternative, that someone can total two new cars every week and still get insurance for the same rates as anyone else?

> Because for normal humans, there is no difference between ‘insurance won’t be issued’ and premiums shooting up from $100/mo to $90k/mo.

But why should an insurance company be required to insure you at all? "Known arsonists can't get/afford fire insurance" is fine. "People who get into a major car accident every week can't get/afford car insurance" is fine.

> especially when the policy renewal period is in the middle of whatever is going on.

That's not how insurance works. You buy insurance, then something happens, then you file a claim. They can't retroactively raise your premiums, they can only raise the future ones because there is now evidence that your risk is higher, and then you get to decide if continuing to carry insurance is worth it, and you still get the money from the claim that happened while you were insured. Then you can either choose to pay the higher rates, go uninsured going forward or stop doing the thing you need insurance coverage for.

> At least ‘pre existing conditions’ aren’t automatically a death sentence when trying to switch insurance anymore eh?

This has a similar effect to putting the full lifetime cost on the insurance company you had when you got diagnosed, except that you can then change insurance companies. Which is weird and has perverse incentives, like there is no reason to carry good insurance against long-term cancer treatment until after you find out you have cancer. Which makes the good insurance much more expensive because buyers would self-select and only people who know they have cancer would buy it.

Then we try to avoid that by tying health insurance to employment which makes it harder for people to switch when they get a diagnosis, and that in turn has a ton of other negative effects because now there is much less competitive pressure in the health insurance market.

Regulators seem to really suck at thinking through the consequences of what they're doing. Or they don't and someone is getting paid to do it this way on purpose.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are sometimes limited avenues for a customer to object if their insurance is cancelled based on inaccurate information. This is part of the risk one takes buying property. It’s more than offset by the benefits of buying property. Or else everyone wouldn’t be telling me what an idiot I am for renting.

No, it's definitely not. No one accounts for the risk of being rejected due to inaccurate information. It doesn't even make sense to do so because the nature of the probability isn't definable.

Arent all the property owners telling me they took a risk so they deserve their house to 3x?
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