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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#641

Post by ashirusnw »

kurthr wrote: post #569
edanm wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the rockets being fired into Israel is one threat, but the far greater threat is just Hamas repeating the October 7th invasion again. They've said, numerous times, that they will do it - invade Israel again and again, killing as many Israelis as they can. (Leaders have also said they will kill Jews anywhere in the world, btw.) If Israel doesn't take out Hamas, it is entirely unclear if it will be able to prev…

I think it's interesting to believe that Israel can effectively and permanently take out Hamas (and the like), while they cannot prevent October 7th. Either they have sufficient intelligence/surveillance or they don't. The last "election" in 2006 was the year after a majority of the population of Gaza was born (median age 18), and politically, it seems Netanyahu prefers Hamas to any less radical representation, becau…

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#642

Post by nahumfarchi »

rightbyte wrote: post #216
nahumfarchi wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't think that is a reasonable take at all. 1. This is warfare, not civil law. Hamas, which is the sovereign in Gaza (there has been no Israeli military presence there for years), commited an act of war in which hundreds were killed, raped, and kidnapped. Israel, as a state, has the moral duty to fight back and make sure this never happens again. Otherwise, it breaks the most basic contract between citizen an…

> Finally, an honest question, what would you do? How would you respond in this situation? The situation is by design. I am not going to pretend I don't think Netanyahu wanted this.

Based on what? He's a cynical real politik kind of guy, but I doubt this is how he hoped this would play out. At the end of the day, I believe that his legacy is extremely important to him, and he probably did not want to be remembered as the one in power during one of the worse massacres against Jews since the holocaust. Not to mention that it's highly likely he'll be voted out during the next elections (TBD...)

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#643

Post by yieldcrv »

whycome wrote: post #290
ido wrote: post #237

Plenty of Palestinians oppose Hamas and want peace and a free Palestinian state according to the '67 borders. These would be the equivalents on the other side.

And some support the war Hamas rages despite the effect on the Palestinian people/civilians. Is that an other other side? This is complex, and we really can't describe this conflict as just having two sides.

speaking of complex, half of the reason I absolutely laughed at the call for statements and the idea that “your silence is noted” here in the US is because I didn't want my Lebanese and Egyptian friends calling for statements too. It wasnt clear if they and their families would be roped in a few weeks with conscription or not-discriminate-enough bombing.

Its even funnier when that silence is interpreted as wishing for a pogrom, like, see a therapist? If there is 1,000 years to support that view of every society turning against you, the common denominator isn’t us!

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#644

Post by aluminum96 »

Al Jazeera is an exceptionally disreputable source for coverage on this particular issue. It's not just their primary source of funding -- the Qatari state -- but also their abhorrent track record of running stories with no factual basis (such as in the wake of the Al-Ahli incident).

I can't point to anything specifically incorrect about this reporting. But you have to take a lot of primary-source-based reporting on faith, and why would I trust a source that has such a non-neutral track record?

We'd all be better served by sticking to sources that don't have obvious conflicts of interest.

Edit: I want to be clear that I don't have any specific evidence that the article contains falsehoods, and I'm not excusing any of the conduct alleged in the article. I just think Al Jazeera is a terrible way to start a constructive discussion, given its reputation.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#645

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

ashirusnw wrote: post #139
forty wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't defense also supposed to be targeted against an aggressor? How could the millions of innocent civilians that Israel is displacing, destroying all their houses and belongings and killing (and maybe torturing as described in this article), be considered in any way as aggressor? if a terrorist hid in an appartement building, and the police came, start killing all the inhabitants of the building and destroyed the b…

you and the OP are conflating civil war with laws of war. October 7th was clearly an act of war, and war has been the result. Hamas knew this, but relied on Hezbollah and Houthies pitching in in a much larger way, they miscalculated and Gaza suffers.

I think it's pretty clear Hamas's main objective was to derail the rapprochement between Israel and Saudi Arabia. They achieved that. It's also clear they don't care what the cost is to Gazans.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#646

Post by kevingadd »

megaman821 wrote: post #381
kevingadd wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has a proven ability to do precision strikes on apartment buildings that would basically only target the terrorist - we've seen them do this - but they choose to level entire buildings instead. You can probably figure out why they choose that option.

Israel also has the proven ability to level all of Gaza, but they fact that they don't doesn't mean much. Outsider speculation on Israeli military objectives is meaningless. Wars don't end when one side gets yelled at. They either end with diplomacy or victory.

The photos coming out of the north suggest they have in fact decided to level most or all of Gaza.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#647

Post by aluminum96 »

ameminator wrote: post #3

I honestly don't think this subject should be on here. I don't think it's possible for a coherent or respectful or even useful conversation to happen here. I haven't seen any conversation about this topic that hadn't gone to hell.

Absolutely agree. Civil online discourse about the I/P conflict is impossible, and at this point we're just beating a dead horse.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#648

Post by reducesuffering »

nvm0n2 wrote: post #565
xg15 wrote: post #525

I don't want to start another top-level thread on this topic, as it is contentious enough already - but just as an aside, the UN General Assembly just passed a (symbolic) resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire with 153 to 10, an even stronger majority than the last resolution. Of course UN votes are always subject to all kinds of political considerations and power dynamics and the saying "nations have no frien…

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I'm reminded of US Secretary of Defense, McNamara's lessons he learned from being involved in that quagmire.

'Even though the United States is the strongest nation in the world, it should never use that power unilaterally: "if we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we better reexamine our reasoning.'

He was talking about our mistake applying unilateral policy in Vietnam. We didn't apply his advice to Iraq and look where it got us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fog_of_War

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#650

Post by dragonwriter »

ido wrote: post #237

Plenty of Palestinians oppose Hamas and want peace and a free Palestinian state according to the '67 borders. These would be the equivalents on the other side.

> Plenty of Palestinians oppose Hamas

Heck, even at the time of the 2006 elections, an overwhelming majority of Palestinians including Hamas supporters also supported a peace agreement with Israel, and moderation of what was then Hamas's platform. (The latter occurred, the former not so much -- in large part because Israel stopped negotiating when the executive of the PA wanted Hamas -- the party that won a majority in the legislative elections -- involved in the negotiations.)

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