This war was already settled long ago on smartphones, which are globally the most used personal tech. There are already lots of things like banks and messaging apps that require full or partial use of an unrooted smartphone for security purposes. Now they're bringing it to the more niche area of PCs.
Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
641–650 of 876 posts
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#642Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think it's double-think, it's just a lack of consequential thinking. I believe the writers of the spec when they say that they just want to be able to see which ad views are real or not. They even lay out some (far too weak) ideas to keep the system from being mandatory and abusable. But they don't realize just how quickly things will go out of hand once the rest of the organization realizes what they have cr…
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> 3. Web EME. "End of the web as an open platform", years later, web is just the same as it always was.
And yet every single paid streaming service refuses to serve high quality video to users on platforms like Linux. This is entirely normalized, and they still get to call themselves "web" sites because this mechanism is now officially part of "the web".
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#643Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#644Mozilla should call for Google's removal from the W3C over this implementation of Web Environment Integrity. "But Chrome has 65% market share, what good is the W3C without them?” If Google can take unilateral action to fundamentally change the basic principles of the web, then the W3C is already useless. This will give Google a clear choice: if they want to maintain the idea that the W3C matters, they should withdraw…
> It is unbelievable that over the course of 3 days, the potential future of the web has been put in such dire straits.
"Move fast and break things." How many here used to cheer this approach?
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#645Mozilla should call for Google's removal from the W3C over this implementation of Web Environment Integrity. "But Chrome has 65% market share, what good is the W3C without them?” If Google can take unilateral action to fundamentally change the basic principles of the web, then the W3C is already useless. This will give Google a clear choice: if they want to maintain the idea that the W3C matters, they should withdraw…
It's far, far too late for this. The W3C is already irrelevant, not that it ever mattered much. The internet is made by big companies. Not standards bodies. The WHATWG has the actual living standards, and Google, Apple, Cloudflare and Amazon make the actual software. Nobody cares about the W3C. And Mozilla is long past dead.
> The internet is made by big companies. Not standards bodies.
Yes. However said companies may want to avoid too much scrutiny from governments.
As long as they can pretend the web is an open standard, they are good. If Google were to leave the w3c, it would expose them to antitrust laws and so on.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#646Don't just comment and complain, contact your antitrust authority today: US: - https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/report-antitrust-violation - antitrust@ftc.gov EU: - https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/antitrust/contact_en - comp-greffe-antitrust@ec.europa.eu UK: - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tell-the-cma-about-a-competition... - general.enquiries@cma.gov.uk India: - https://www.cci.gov.in/antitrust/ - https://www.…
I admire your optimism. Don't know about the others, but I'll be surprised if UK one would lift a finger. They are beyond useless.
I'm not extremely optimistic either but at least in the US Lina Kahn is already on the right track with antitrust and the FTC already has two antitrust cases against Google in process. However, it's still an uphill because antitrust enforcement was either asleep at the wheel (or corrupted, depending on your perspective), which is partially why Google is in such a dominant position to begin with.
IANAL, the EU is also on the right track with antitrust but unfortunately seems very weak in terms of penalties and enforcement.
At this point, anything we can do to slow them down in any jurisdiction in a win. Even if antitrust enforcement is weak making Google at least have to defend this in a pro-forma way I think helps.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#647It's small, but here's a real actionable item that you can do to help: Put a gentle "Use Firefox" (or any other non-Chromium-based browser) message on your website. It doesn't have to be in-your-face, just something small. I've taken my own advice and added it to my own website: https://geeklaunch.io/ (It only appears on Chromium-based browsers.) We can slowly turn the tide, little by little.
I don't think most people know the difference between Chrome or Firefox and if they can still use websites they use with that change, they just won't bother. Even if you explain what is the difference, 99% they'll forget the next day. It's just pointless. With this kind of overreach, only government intervention and regulation can help. Google is not something you can go against with your proverbial wallet - they are…
As Gandhi said, "Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it."
Historically, many people making "insignificant" actions over time is the primary way that things have been improved.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#648Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And Mozilla is long past dead. Mozilla is far from healthy but calling it dead is overstating things.
Mozilla is dead as a doornail. Google succeeded where Microsoft did not, they essentially control the entire web now.
> Google succeeded where Microsoft did not
Microsoft wasn't trying to control the web; they were trying to hobble it so that everyone kept on developing for win32. In retrospect, not a great strategy, but many companies try to kick the can down the road, and it often works, so I can't fault them too much.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#649Publishing an implementation of a proposed web specification is how all web standards are created or evolve. The same thing happens with WebGPU, WASM, and many before them. Usually with a prefix (ms-, moz-, webkit-,...) and/or locked behind a config setting before standardization.
What is different this time other than it being a feature that is considered user-hostile?
That's not to say we shouldn't oppose this feature, I just wouldn't be up in arms about an implementation existing.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#650Mozilla should call for Google's removal from the W3C over this implementation of Web Environment Integrity. "But Chrome has 65% market share, what good is the W3C without them?” If Google can take unilateral action to fundamentally change the basic principles of the web, then the W3C is already useless. This will give Google a clear choice: if they want to maintain the idea that the W3C matters, they should withdraw…
It didn't happen when Apple did it with Safari (and you all were quiet as a mouse as well, with HN actively defending Apple Safari monopoly with this feature enabled)... so why would NOW be any different?
Apple don't have enough web properties to force this sort of change.
Google can turn around tomorrow and say that no browser without WEI can access GMail, GMaps, GSheets, Photos etc; people will have to comply, effectively killing any browser that does not support the feature.
This is the problem with the Chromium monoculture. "We", as generic IT people and developers on HN, definitely have a responsibility for not deprecating this monoculture earlier. If you use Brave, you're guilty; if you use Ungoogled Chromium, you're guilty; if you use Safari, you're guilty. It's high time people start taking responsibility.