Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983 • Hacker News Board

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#641

Post by OkayPhysicist » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 11:03 PM UTC

peanuty1 wrote: post #602

fleshdaddy wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah if we did that I think we’d need to build some systems for these things. We need artists and writers and what not and precluding anyone who can’t afford it would probably suck for society. We’d need some good scholarship type programs to help out there. Honestly we could probably use those now, I don’t know how realistic a lot of these things are under our current system.

We have far, far too many liberal arts graduates. There is a huge labor shortage that we need those people to fill in fields like restaurants, plumbing, nursing, construction, farming, etc.

There's no labor shortage. There's only a wage shortage. Restaurants are a particularly egregious example, as someone with firsthand experience. Restaurants treat their employees like shit, work them to the bone, and then pay them as little as humanly possible. I got out and never looked back, because it turns out people are willing to shower you in cash if you can string together 3 lines of Python.

Healthcare as a whole baffles me. They pay well enough, sometimes, but they also just treat their employees like absolute crap. Would it really break the bank to hire 25% more staff instead of having your entire workforce getting paid overtime week after week?

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#642

Post by usrusr » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 11:04 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #489

lr1970 wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worse than just "backed by the federal government," the loans are basically protected by the government. It is really strange that government does not constrain tuitions of the colleges participating in the loan program. Currently, Universities have no incentives to control costs in any way.

Literally all they have to do is limit the maximum loan size. Max $50k per year. Anything beyond that is not subsidized or requires proof of academic performance or ability to repay.

Then parents with money and pull in academic orgs will make sure that tuition will float just far enough above that limit that their children won't suffer from too much competition by the less fortunate.

But then on the other hand I'm not really convinced that this would actually be worse than the model of betting (or worse: bidding, it's a market with limited supply of high-status slots) seemingly unbounded amounts of future income on flying really high. And if they do fly high, just not quite high enough, it's effectively indentured service. No limits gambling is never a good idea, even if the game is not entirely devoid of an element of skill.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

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Post by 0xParlay » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 11:06 PM UTC

kristopolous wrote: post #625

0xParlay wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking about the "average cost of private school" data. Which part is a slam dunk on "neoclassical" econ? Or even the original article. I'm not disagreeing just curious how you came to that conclusion. The data linked above suggests Catholic schools are the most affordable. Priors confirmed - theocracy is the only way forward.

I was responding to an author in the thread, not to the author of the article. Catholic schools are financially structured in rather unique ways. They're controlled by clerical orders which are technically financially independent from the Vatican, kind of like a franchise. Together, the institutions under a specific clerical order operate collectively kind of like a cooperative so money flows around differently than…

> This reframing of the institution as a market based services purchase is the rationale for the policies that have caused all the other problems

Monks around the world are telling themselves "THIS GUY GETS IT". The institution misses its alma mater :(

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

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Post by berniedurfee » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 11:07 PM UTC

erickhill wrote: post #566

lr1970 wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worse than just "backed by the federal government," the loans are basically protected by the government. It is really strange that government does not constrain tuitions of the colleges participating in the loan program. Currently, Universities have no incentives to control costs in any way.

Reminds me of our healthcare system. And military contractors. And..

housing and transportation and…

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

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Post by drew-y » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 11:08 PM UTC

ye-olde-sysrq wrote: post #22

drew-y wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got a source for that claim?

Googling it provides a quick-answer box that states this claim and provides a source: https://www.google.com/search?q=what+percent+of+student+loan... 92% Federal student loans make up the vast majority of American education debt—about 92% of all outstanding student loans is federal debt. The federal student loan portfolio currently totals more than $1.6 trillion, owed by about 43 million borrowers. I think it's then…

No, it doesn't. That quick-answer doesn't even mention rising tuition costs. It's only tangentially related. The existence of government backed student loans does not in itself prove they are the main cause of increased tuition.

To prove that claim, you'd need to actually demonstrate some sort of causal relationship and have data to back it up

For example, you could make the argument that:

1. Demand is the primary cause of tuition increases

2. Government backed student loans are the primary cause for the increase in demand

I believe that 1 is almost certainly the main cause of tuition cost increases. What I haven't seen any evidence for is 2. If it's true, show me the evidence. I'm open to it.

From what this article states and the research I've done, the main driver of demand is not cheap government loans. It's the labor market. The best jobs in this country require a college degree. That is what is probably driving demand, the desire to earn a liveable wage. Not the fact that you can get a cheap loan.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#646

Post by berniedurfee » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 11:11 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #614

erickhill wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of our healthcare system. And military contractors. And..

So true. This is essentially how the US works. We're built on debt. Sometimes I think our society would collapse without all the debt we create.

The US is built on interest from debt. Money does grow on trees for some.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#647

Post by berniedurfee » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 11:12 PM UTC

hoosieree wrote: post #512

imtringued wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally all they have to do is limit the maximum loan size. Max $50k per year. Anything beyond that is not subsidized or requires proof of academic performance or ability to repay.

How about a tuition capped at the median salaries of its graduates?

I love this. There was a school that had this model, it failed, but it did try.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

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Post by bipop5000 » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 11:14 PM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #600

rorroe53 wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good, the world doesn't need that many liberal arts graduates. Quality over quantity should be the focus in fields where there aren't that many employment opportunities and potential for successful entrepreneurship. Besides, nothing prevents one from pursuing a career in most liberal arts without a degree, assuming you don't want to be a researcher. You can always be a nurse or an engineer with arts related side-job,…

> the world doesn't need that many liberal arts graduates If I were to make a list of the problems with the world, having too many people with liberal arts degrees would not be anywhere near that list. Too few , yes. Too many business school graduates, yeah. Too many law school graduates, probably. Too many STEM field graduates, maybe. Too many graduates who look at people as a resource to be extracted, or an abstrac…

I agree.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#649

Post by janalsncm » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 11:17 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #541

nsvd wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a popular opinion, but how do you quantitatively prove it? While the formal education of a population may correlate with wealth, I think it would be harder to prove a causal link.

It's about what is necessary for DEMOCRACY to work well. I don't care what provides a higher ROI to some rich owner-class people, I care about a society that represents its people.

It really depends on what you mean by that. Plenty of people get bachelor’s degrees with little to no civics or history education included. And historically, college degrees were rare. Only 28% of the Silent Generation had any college. Now, 67% of Millennials do. Did democracy not function before?

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/02/14/millenn...

However, to the extent that education enables better income opportunities I agree. Education can reduce economic inequality which is a huge barrier to social cohesion and civic trust. However education isn’t the only path to better wealth distribution.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

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Post by musicale » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 11:18 PM UTC

taeric wrote: post #24

eschulz wrote: post #10

Makes sense when you have student loans backed by the federal government. If an 18 year old with no money and no credit history gets accepted into a qualifying university, she will be able to receive a loan since the bank knows that the government will protect their investment if she fails to pay them back. So now young people have this easy access to credit, and universities can greatly increase tuition and fees wit…

Worse than just "backed by the federal government," the loans are basically protected by the government. Being one of the small list of things you can't bankrupt out of, the risk in giving out the loans has been fully pulled from the lenders. It is frustrating to hear the discourse over the inappropriate students that are taking on too much debt, all the while ignoring the lenders that are taking on too much risk. At…

It makes little sense to treat student loan dollars differently from regular dollars.