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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#641

Post by dmix »

patrick451 wrote: post #613
jaegerpicker wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been involved with Software Development for over 20 years started with VB6 and some perl/python in 1998. I saw the "informal code of conduct" and it never worked. What really happened: many people were treating terribly and most of it was swept under the rug. CoC were created for valid and good reasons. I'm not defending the Rust community here, it seems childish to me. The past is not what you are trying to cla…

And now we have a CoC and people are still mistreated. smh.

You shouldn't need a giant, complex CoC to tell people engaging in sexual harassment and creepy behavior to leave. Which is usually the type of stuff people point to for why it's so important to spend thousands of hours debating the rules.

If I've learned anything for Reddit mod culture it's that when you see super involved rules on the sidebar it's still ultimately just post-defacto justifications for whatever emotional mood the mods are in that day. The longer the rules = a good measure how aggressively the mods gatekeeps their community for things that go well beyond the scope of what the community was originally about.

This is how things like Programming becoming lower priorities in such communities than personalities/views of the people running it.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#642

Post by busterarm »

patrick451 wrote: post #613
jaegerpicker wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been involved with Software Development for over 20 years started with VB6 and some perl/python in 1998. I saw the "informal code of conduct" and it never worked. What really happened: many people were treating terribly and most of it was swept under the rug. CoC were created for valid and good reasons. I'm not defending the Rust community here, it seems childish to me. The past is not what you are trying to cla…

And now we have a CoC and people are still mistreated. smh.

more like "and now we have a CoC, so when anyone is even slightly grievanced, multiple careers will get torched (and not even always the party you'd expect)"

Instead of a tool to be used to solve problems local to an organization or an event, it's wielded as a bludgeon in always the most public way possible (either by the org/conference or target of the CoC itself) and time and again this has shown to be bad for everyone and an endless source of drama.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#643

Post by klyrs »

bruce343434 wrote: post #183

As a non-american I must say I don't understand where the latter half of the article comes from. Why care about race? Why must a racist reason be sought behind everything?

In a culture that values free speech and critical thought, why would you expect anybody to stay silent about the elephant in the room?

And where do you live that inequities have never existed?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#644

Post by jasmer »

drxzcl wrote: post #308
jasmer wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You very literally accused someone of 'covering something bad up' because of a random post.

That’s not what I said.

"makes you look (see, optics again) either incredibly naïve or covering for some pretty bad behaviour."

It is point blank what you said, it's plainly ridiculous that you would deny what is right there as though we're misinterpreting it, this is repulsive gaslighting.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#645

Post by croes »

mwcampbell wrote: post #473
croes wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since micro aggressions are a thing number 2 is hardly possible.

That's not my understanding of micro-aggressions [1]. IIUC, inadvertently doing a micro-aggression isn't being an asshole, but persisting in it after it has been pointed out definitely is. [1]: Disclosure: I'm a minority (disabled), but I'm also a white man.

Ever heard of the Law of Penetrance of Negative Residues?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#646

Post by kortilla »

ninepoints wrote: post #555
preordained wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The media hates him, and I can understand how that can be hard to separate out from one's view of reality; but, I think whether Elon has success despite actually being terrible as some might think, or is actually really good at what he does, he's been very successful on the whole if you can be the slightest bit objective. So, given that, you would have to claim to know, really know, that it's all despite him to say h…

Correlation != causation. It's clear that his success is in spite of himself, not because of it. I don't know anyone in my professional circle that would work under him, what with having a reputation for impulse firing people that disagree with you and other clear signs of egomania.

Is your suggestion that both Tesla and SpaceX ignored his leadership all of these years and went their own direction to success?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#647

Post by flerovium »

pie_flavor wrote: post #213

This is certainly strangely phrased. The version I got from another member was that the content of the talk was to be about a proposed feature that may not actually end up in Rust (in my view it likely would not), and having that be the keynote talk would imply to a lot of people that it would end up in Rust and put the language in an uncomfortable position where something other than the feature's merit would be push…

> something other than the feature's merit would be pushing for its inclusion

What do you mean?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#648

Post by lr1970 »

xyzzyz wrote: post #484
fatneckbeard wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I worry about this. There was no "C leadership", it was simple enough that dozens of people created their own compilers within a few years of C existing. this was back before the internet. they had companies sprouting up like Borland just making C compilers for personal home computers. C just ... spread. All these kids learning Arduino in school, they are learning C. There basically is no other usable compiler t…

Rust is winning market from C and C++ precisely because of strong technical leadership and direction. It couldn’t have made much progress by taking similar hands off approach as C, because C is already more than good enough C.

> Rust is winning market from C and C++ precisely because of strong technical leadership and direction.

No, Rust is winning because it is 40 years younger than C and 30 years younger than C++. Rust incorporates advances in computer language design that C/C++ cannot adopt without breaking backwards compatibility. Rust is winning despite its leadership rather than because of it.

EDIT: elaborated a bit more.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#649

Post by dmix »

scns wrote: post #365
twic wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, lots of people high up in Rust have a background in JavaScript, where drama is common, which I believe has helped normalise it as a mode of social interaction.

Drama is common in human Comunnities.

The funny thing is the typical response to basic drama is aggressive moderation/oversight, which often generates as much or more drama than before.

Online communities have a natural tendency to turn inward and become disconnected from the original purpose of the community. A good measure is how much meta/political stuff comes up in every thread.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#650

Post by jasmer »

viraptor wrote: post #314
jasmer wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody cares but the speaker themselves. There is obviously some legit cred here, and it's a definite downgrade - but it's not being sent to the woods either. G Given that 'nobody else cares at all, whatsoever' - that adds context to this which we should include in our understanding. Nobody is missing grant money, or getting a stain on their resume, not getting a job, publicly dragged, meaning the slight is ultimatel…

> Nobody cares but the speaker themselves. You're not speaking for everyone. I care about the Rust leadership behaving properly for example, because issues like this may be a sign of other problems with respecting the community. And I would like to trust them to resolve issues fairly and quickly since I will rely on the project's progress in the future and don't want people leaving because of mishandling social issue…

Yes, we care that people behave themselves, we're referring to 'who cares' about whether the nature of a talk being 'keynote speaker or not'.

If Jim Smith is keynote, great, if they're in a conference talk, great, nobody is going to fathom one way or another but the speaker themselves.

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