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More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

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Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#641

Post by roenxi »

jackcosgrove wrote: post #498
rootusrootus wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had a class that really critically analyzed native American cultures. Today the class would be considered racist, it would have to a priori be an admiration of those cultures, rather than a critical analysis. It's amazing that now we're getting hit from both directions in this regard. The left would like minorities treated with kid gloves, and now the right wants to muzzle schools that would say anything critical…

The 80s and the 90s do seem in retrospect to be exemplars of what I consider the college experience. By the end of the 80s, the canon wars had been fought and lost, so any topic was fair game for study. In loco parentis had been gone for a while. Ethnic boundaries were all but gone, and class boundaries were disappearing as well as more people went to college. By the time the 90s rolled around university life seemed…

I suspect in the 80s the job market was acting like having a degree implied a graduate was in the top 5% of humans by ability. Now it'll be more like top 33%. That is getting dangerously close to signalling that someone has a warm body as opposed to an unusually bright mind.

I suspect that is the driver behind a lot of the points you make - it isn't possible for universities to maintain a little culture of intellectual curiosity off on the side when double-digit percentages of the population are moving through them.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#642

Post by carlosjobim »

confidantlake wrote: post #482
carlosjobim wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish we offered free high quality university educations. You could sponsor somebody's university or college education, pay a full or part scolarship.

We need an army to defend our nation. You could stand at the border with a rifle.

There are thousands of scholarships. What do you think they are? They are people like the parent commenter, who think other people deserve a good education, and decide to put their money where their mouth is.

And yes, if somebody calls for war, they should be the first to sign up for joining the military. Everybody should put their money where their mouth is.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#643

Post by advicer »

hiddencost wrote: post #626
cat_plus_plus wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culture is a shared fiction of unity and greatness that enables great civilizations to overcome otherwise inevitable tribal warfare. So Native Americans and Pilgrims sat down together for a Thanksgiving feast with Turkey and mashed potatoes. Should we teach this to children despite there being more to the story? Well it depends, do we want descendants of Pilgrims and Native Americans to sit down for a Thanksgiving fe…

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Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#644

Post by nequo »

rayiner wrote: post #539
eyelidlessness wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m just a HS graduate who should’ve failed my senior year, and I may well have dropped out of HS if I could go back and do it again. So, an enormous grain of salt should accompany what I’m about to say. I think the benefits of a liberal arts education are probably worth everything its proponents say. Having a well rounded education, which exposes one to not just new ideas but an openness to new ways of thinking, is…

> Having a well rounded education, which exposes one to not just new ideas but an openness to new ways of thinking, is invaluable. In what way is it invaluable?

In the way that it keeps giving well after you graduate from college.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#645

Post by sylvainkalache »

College was designed and mostly still is designed to give people a general education. When the society sees it as a pathway to become a professional.

While it does help, it is definitely not the best way to get a job.

As my former job, I founded a software engineering school that was very similar to what apprenticeships provide: hands-on learning. We did not have teachers, no lectures, students were learning by working on coding projects, very easy at the beginning, reaching industry standard by the end of the program.

And this type of methodology, coming from progressive education (Montessori is a spin of this) also works to become a life-long learner. In my opinion, actually way more efficient than traditional college.

Apprenticeship has this bad rep of being for blue collar jobs, I hope this will shift. So many of us in the tech industry have mostly learned on our own and on the job. I think we are the leaving proof that this type of program are extremely efficient.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#646

Post by eldritch_4ier »

cperciva wrote: post #639
obscur wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first sentence is interesting, why do you think that?

Harvard takes in a lot of students on the basis of athletics, legacy, and other non-academic considerations. While I've seen students admitted to specific colleges in Oxford due to family ties, that has always been a matter of which college a student attends; I've never seen someone get in that way who wasn't already going to be admitted to the University on academic grounds. If you look at the top 1/3 of Harvard stu…

It’s not like the legacies that get in are unqualified. You can look at any of their resumes, they still have stellar grades, standardized test scores, extracurriculars and more. Legacies aren’t just dumb rich people, their parents just went to that top tier school (and I’m sure you can imagine just having parents that highly educated can be a leg up in how they raise you their entire life). In fact, legacies can often be overqualified and should go to a more competitive school but are guided into the legacy school by their parents / guidance counselors.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#647

Post by geomark »

briHass wrote: post #132
alsaaro wrote: post #88

As someone who has worked two of the most intensive blue collar jobs, people should be wary of romanticizing blue collar work. Blue collar workers are expected to really work at their jobs. White collar workers can chill if there is no work to be done, or be sent home early with pay, or take a relaxation day and just browse the internet and listen to podcasts. They have perks, you see white collar workers leaving wor…

Anyone that hasn't done manual labor really has no idea how rough it can be. I worked as an office-furniture-mover in my early 20s (Summers in college), and some days were pretty tough. Granted, that's pretty low on the manual labor skills spectrum, but even for a guy in prime physical shape, it's tiring and has elements of danger. Now that I'm double that age, the manual labor I've done like rewiring my house, insta…

I feel your pain. I worked in a furniture warehouse and delivered furniture, summers, in Phoenix.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#648

Post by geomark »

juve1996 wrote: post #433
HEmanZ wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think anyone idealizes those kind of physical labor jobs. Usually “the trades” is much more skilled manual labor: plumbing, hvac, welding, specialized mechanic work and repair, woodworking/carpentry, etc. No one says people should want a life of a mover, meatpacker, or ditch digger.

The idea that plumbers/hvac/welders etc don't have physical wear and tear is also a myth that needs dispelled.

One old timer welder once told me there's a good reason you don't see many people like him (old welders).

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#649

Post by pnt12 »

pinkmuffinere wrote: post #478
phist_mcgee wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both can still be valid. Mental health days are good, and burn out is a real phenomenon. It's a shame that blue collar workers don't have access to these facilities, and yes office workers are by and large 'softer' than blue collar workers. But we should fight corporations and organisations to provide those facilities for everyone , and not pick sides in a working class debate (not that you did that). All paid worker…

>All paid workers real enemy is the capital class, and we should never forget that. I totally agree with you up to this point, so just want to explain why i disagree with this particular point. I want better treatment for all humans, and I agree that some of the "capital class" is actively fighting this, but some is actively helping it as well. For example, I think Bill Gates, the Collison Brothers, and some of the K…

Well one can argue those are cherry picked examples.

But even if they aren't, it's still a problem that those people decide who they contribute to, instead of the billion dollar businesses paying their fair share to the democratic state, who then has accountability to invest in their stakeholders - the citizens.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#650

Post by rayiner »

nequo wrote: post #644
rayiner wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having a well rounded education, which exposes one to not just new ideas but an openness to new ways of thinking, is invaluable. In what way is it invaluable?

In the way that it keeps giving well after you graduate from college.

That’s equally vacuous. In what way is it beneficial?
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