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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#641

Post by shashurup »

Simon_O_Rourke wrote: post #611

Despite all the really shady stuff that went on under his leadership, I think it's a fair statement to say that Russia/Soviet Union was a more prosperous, happier and more ethical state under his leadership than it is currently.

What does make you think so? I have witnesed everything since Brezhnev. Under Gorbachev thing started to detiriorate quite fast and most people shifted their focus from being happy about the iron curtain removal to making ends meet. As a person who lived through all this I would say that the last 20 years were definitely the best from prosperity and happiness point of view (frankly, the latter not being realted to the regime at all)

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#642

Post by KingOfCoders »

euroderf wrote: post #627
idlewords wrote: post #61

Gorbachev secured his place in history by what he didn't do. While never endorsing the end of the eastern bloc, he made it clear beginning in the late 1980's that unlike his predecessors, he would not oppose democratic reforms in Eastern Europe by force. To general astonishment, he kept this promise, and with the regrettable exception of Lithuania this commitment to not repeating the crimes of his predecessors is Gor…

Not to pick a fight, but I feel it's important then to note that it was not Reagan who "won" the Cold War. It was Gorbachev, who had the political courage (and idealism) to take the leap.

The people who "won" the cold war are those Eastern countries that had been occupied by Russia for 45 years and fought for their freedom in Prague, Budapest and especially in Gdańsk.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#643

Post by ItsTooMuch »

euroderf wrote: post #627
idlewords wrote: post #61

Gorbachev secured his place in history by what he didn't do. While never endorsing the end of the eastern bloc, he made it clear beginning in the late 1980's that unlike his predecessors, he would not oppose democratic reforms in Eastern Europe by force. To general astonishment, he kept this promise, and with the regrettable exception of Lithuania this commitment to not repeating the crimes of his predecessors is Gor…

Not to pick a fight, but I feel it's important then to note that it was not Reagan who "won" the Cold War. It was Gorbachev, who had the political courage (and idealism) to take the leap.

I thought it was Reagan who forced Gorbachev and the Soviet Union into this position by arms racing them to death. I bet you Gorbachev would try to keep the empire if it wasn't for the economical collapse. He sent tanks to the Baltics. He cheered for the annexation of Crimea. His empire might've been more democratic than the USSR used to be, but still an empire. Also, he was a communist and tried to keep it, but the people were full of communism.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#644

Post by qwytw »

avmich wrote: post #327
LtWorf wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check life expectancy of russians… it is not the same… it has gone worse.

Unimpressed. How much worse? USA life expectation went worse for last couple of years - is it enough argument for the lack of an argument?

It went from 69 years to 65 in 2005 when it started rising again. However life expectancy in the USSR seems to have been mostly stagnant since the 1960's, so I'm not sure the situation was that great in 1990.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#645

Post by photochemsyn »

nradov wrote: post #565
photochemsyn wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the Berlin Wall came down, there were not a few people still around with vivid memories of what 'Unified Germany' had got up to in the 20th century, so there was that. Just sayin.

You're just saying what exactly? If you have a point to make then state it directly instead of wasting our time with useless innuendo.

Well, that's why disbanding NATO and giving military control of Europe to a German-centric organization was viewed with, well, uncertainty about what they might get up to. Given the persistence of the Nazi mentality in that region, one might also point out. It's not like the Japanese were the only ones with their holy shrines in the mountains to fallen heroes, was it?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#646

Post by qikInNdOutReply »

michaelwww wrote: post #583
hackerlight wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From everything I've read about him, he was a true liberal and egalitarian. How does someone like that rise up the ranks of an authoritarian USSR in the first place? Did he hide his beliefs and present as just a competent bureaucrat until he got to the top?

The way I remember as a far off observer was the Soviet Union went through a few very old and ineffective leaders after Brezhnev died, while their war in Afghanistan drained resources so they couldn't possibly keep up with Reagan's Star Wars initiative. Gorbachev was a young, vital fresh face with new ideas that they had to go with to try to reform and survive.

It was a gerontocracy, with old dryed husks dying on the throne pre gorbachev. It was also mostly resource exporting back then, econimically dependent on the west. The oil prices during the gulf war killed them.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#647

Post by qwytw »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #296
avmich wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading about successes fighting polio with vaccines, or just remembering a standard practice in American health system to routinely vaccinate people - with rather few exceptions - shows a big difference with COVID-related vaccine controversy. What's that different?..

The biggest difference is Polio crippled kids and they were vaccinating kids, whereas COVID mostly kills grandparents and leaves most kids unscathed. Also, now we have facebook.

Also Polio vaccines are much, much more effective and even amongst these groups (i.e. children for Polio and seniors for Covid) Covid is much less dangerous.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#648

Post by qikInNdOutReply »

hypersoar wrote: post #431
eloy wrote: post #20

RIP Gorbachev, one of the few genuinely good people in politics. After he retired from politics, he was featured in several advertisements: - In 1994 for Apple Computer: https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/10/07/The-first-advertisem... - In 1998 for Pizza Hut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorbachev_Pizza_Hut_commercial - In 2000 for the ÖBB, the Austrian railways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLscz8kEg6c - In 2007…

I saw that Pizza Hut commercial earlier today and I can't stop thinking about it. It has so much going on. It's the victory of capitalism over Soviet communism, the rise of neoliberalism to global hegemony, and the "End of History" in the form of a 30-second ad for pizza.

It was also the start of the rush to full neo feudalism. Many conflate capitalism (oppossed) with what we had after the USSR got weak capitalism(unopossed). Turns out the remarkable archievments happen with systemic competition.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#649

Post by euroderf »

Gorby came to DC for a summit with Reagan in December 1987. When his motorcade stopped to meet folks on the street, he was absolutely mobbed.

I remember the news coverage (WashPost et al.) expressing surprise and bafflement. I think the power structure in the US did not expect such an outpouring of obvious hunger from the man on the street for an end to all the Cold War madness. "More popular than Reagan ?!"

Mikhail Gorbachev requiet in pacem.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#650

Post by irusensei »

hackerlight wrote: post #550
idlewords wrote: post #61

Gorbachev secured his place in history by what he didn't do. While never endorsing the end of the eastern bloc, he made it clear beginning in the late 1980's that unlike his predecessors, he would not oppose democratic reforms in Eastern Europe by force. To general astonishment, he kept this promise, and with the regrettable exception of Lithuania this commitment to not repeating the crimes of his predecessors is Gor…

From everything I've read about him, he was a true liberal and egalitarian. How does someone like that rise up the ranks of an authoritarian USSR in the first place? Did he hide his beliefs and present as just a competent bureaucrat until he got to the top?

If I remember correctly (and please correct me if I’m wrong) his ascent was influenced by his predecessor Andropov, which was one of the original revolutionaries but like Gorby he had a more liberal approach. Andropov’s health was really bad and Gorby being his right arm ended up as chairman of the union.
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