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EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

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Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#641

Post by nicce »

Barrin92 wrote: post #632
nicce wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then don't install third party apps on your iPhone and only install Apple software? Like I literally cannot understand the thought process behind this. Someone needs to physically restrain you from installing an app that you don't want? Because not everyone understands tech very well. There will be tons of social engineering campaigns to make you install the app you don’t want. And enough of them will succeed. And…

People have been using laptops and desktops (including from apple), on which they can run their own software, for literally decades. Closed systems are new, not open ones. My 60 year old boomer father who has 9 years of education can find his way around on the command line. Yes, people don't understand tech very well any more because we're giving them crippled tech, and treat them as if they are helpless . It's the p…

> People have been using laptops and desktops (including from apple), on which they can run their own software, for literally decades. Closed systems are new, not open ones. My 60 year old boomer father who has 9 years of education can find his way around on the command line. Yes, people don't understand tech very well any more because we're giving them crippled tech, and treat them as if they are helpless. It's the paternalism that makes people illiterate, not the other way around.

Yes. And because it was so challenging, totally new industry around anti-virus engines appeared because of that. And fight is still going. It has got better for sure since the beginning, but we still have hundres of thousands machines as part of botnets, because someone downloded something unsuitable from the internet.

But how many times have you heard iPhone malware in the news, other than vuln based? How many times iPhone has been part of the botnet? I can’t even recall a day.

If you can’t sideload iPhone, why you are using it? Just go with Android as it is perfect for your needs. If you are already using Android, why even bother to complain about iPhone. You are not forced to use it. iPhone could be good for other people’s needs. Not everything has to suit for everyone. People from the large majority don’t even know about sideloading or even find use for it.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#642

Post by mixedCase »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #393
cycomanic wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we stop pretending that Apple has the users best interest in mind? They just want to be the gatekeeper for lucrative applications/functions so they can charge for it. That they somehow convinced apple users that it's somehow in their interest just shows how good their marketing is.

As a byproduct it does give a measure of privacy so what's it to you if apple users just don't care about your idea of freedom? I hope this European legislation at least lets apple customers opt-IN to these new features or choose the old way of doing business. I would prefer to keep access footprints to a minimum to stuff like NFC, contacts, hardware APIs, apple pay, etc on my phone.

Apple is not forbidden by this legislation from providing a user-controlled sandbox.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#643

Post by mixedCase »

katbyte wrote: post #631
dingleberry420 wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened to personal agency? Let people make mistakes, you don't need to infantilize them.

young children don't know any better. hell many teens don't. older people get dementia and go senile. Not everyone is tech savvy. And selfishly I don't want to have to continually be on guard with my phone and worry about "making mistakes". Don't go forcing your world view on a product i have selected in large part because of the restrictions it places on developers, especially when you have the larger android ecosys…

You can ask Apple to give you the tools to easily manage permissions, same goes for their parental blocks.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#644

Post by xdennis »

kmlx wrote: post #22
tchocky wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's good news! No more forced crappy webkit browser engine in iOS. The other things can be added in a secure fashion as well. Sideloading doesn't need to be wild west. macOS also makes it possible with certificates etc. Messanger interop is also nice, when done right: basically would need a shared standard like the web that is done by a messaging consortium like the W3.

> No more forced crappy webkit browser engine in iOS. you know this just means more chrome right? > Messanger interop is also nice, when done right: basically would need a shared standard like the web that is done by a messaging consortium like the W3. we went thru this before. didn’t work then, won’t work now.

> you know this just means more chrome right?

In practice, probably, but at least you'll also be allowed to install Firefox.

And things don't last forever. Another browser can always gain the crown from Chrome. Without this legislation, it won't even be possible to do that on Apple devices.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#645

Post by xdennis »

tsimionescu wrote: post #468
joshstrange wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Happy that I might be able to install something else than Safari. I hope you like Chrome then. > I want the Gecko engine on iOS. It will probably exist in some official capacity (not just the open source wrappers like IceWeasel or whatever they call it) but it will probably get about as much love as it does on Android which is to say not much at all. Also the market share will be <1% if I had to guess which means n…

As a happy exclusive user of Firefox on Android (and PC), I have yet to meet any sites except legacy corporate apps that had any sort of problem with FF in the last 1-2 years at least.

Same here, except the only times I noticed something doesn't work in Firefox but does in Chrome, it was because of my aggressive use of ad blocking and privacy plugins in Firefox.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#646

Post by markdown »

judge2020 wrote: post #401
samatman wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with the second paragraph at all. Apple sets a restrictive and privacy-centric set of rules for advertisers, which it then follows. The fact that this is a problem for other advertising companies is an indictment of those companies and their bleak surveillance-enabling business model. Contrast this with the "use WebKit or go home" rule, which, like it or not, is favoring Apple's product over others. It'…

Exactly. This is the popup for app store personalized ads[0], which is a full-screen popup that forces you to choose one or the other before you can access the app. It's super transparent and easy to decline the personalization. 0: https://videoweek.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Apple-permi...

The only button they provide is for accepting ads. To say no, they provide a link. That's a dark pattern.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#647

Post by ihuman »

markdown wrote: post #646
judge2020 wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. This is the popup for app store personalized ads[0], which is a full-screen popup that forces you to choose one or the other before you can access the app. It's super transparent and easy to decline the personalization. 0: https://videoweek.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Apple-permi...

The only button they provide is for accepting ads. To say no, they provide a link. That's a dark pattern.

The bottom one isn't a button?

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#648

Post by freedomben »

Barrin92 wrote: post #632
nicce wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then don't install third party apps on your iPhone and only install Apple software? Like I literally cannot understand the thought process behind this. Someone needs to physically restrain you from installing an app that you don't want? Because not everyone understands tech very well. There will be tons of social engineering campaigns to make you install the app you don’t want. And enough of them will succeed. And…

People have been using laptops and desktops (including from apple), on which they can run their own software, for literally decades. Closed systems are new, not open ones. My 60 year old boomer father who has 9 years of education can find his way around on the command line. Yes, people don't understand tech very well any more because we're giving them crippled tech, and treat them as if they are helpless . It's the p…

Thank you, reading through most of this thread I feel like I've been dropped into some crazy world where freedom and security are somehow now mutually exclusive, and the user has become an infantile ignoramus who must be diligently protected from herself by the altruistic benevolent dictator, fearlessly and selflessly defending them from the nest of vipers that is every other company/developer/person. war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength. I couldn't have imagined this level of elitism, arrogance, and paternalism if I had tried.

It reminds me a lot of this famous CS Lewis quote:

> “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#649

Post by arvinsim »

FredPret wrote: post #569
wmeredith wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Are you really sure?", "Apple takes no responsibility not warranty" Sounds good to me. As a techie who maintains several phones for several family members at a variety of tech-literate levels, I certainly hope this experience sucks and is difficult to figure out.

I love the walled garden. You want a self-managed server, buy one. I want a foolproof thin client for myself and all the older people in my life

Are you saying that old people who have difficulty figuring a phone will suddenly become a techie that can find an obscure setting?

Complete FUD. Stop fearmongering.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#650

Post by aljungberg »

car_analogy wrote: post #635
aljungberg wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many people in this thread seem to be arguing I should not be allowed to choose Apple’s model as it is today, “for my own good”. The article is about explicitly outlawing parts of their model. How’s that for personal agency and not infantilising me?

> “for my own good” No, for the common good. We are all harmed when Apple or Google can decide which businesses will succeed or fail, which apps get censored and which are allowed.

Can us common people get to decide what the common good is, or is that exclusively your choice?

Censorship is something governments do, not private companies selling an optional product.

If the greater good is a free for all app store, then let the greater populace decide that by choosing that product, not by outlawing the alternatives.

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