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Airbnb’s design to live and work anywhere

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Re: Airbnb’s design to live and work anywhere

#641

Post by gongdzhauh »

kimbernator wrote: post #582
bko wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no right to control who comes into your neighborhood. This idea has deep ugly roots (e.g. redlining).

The issue isn't who is staying there, it's the fact that they are just random people that don't have any stake in the surrounding community except for their 2-night stay there. Comparing this to redlining is absurd.

The idea that a neighborhood's character needs to be preserved is exactly the kind of logic used to justify redlining.

"Random" people should be able to buy property and use it in the same way that existing owners can.

Re: Airbnb’s design to live and work anywhere

#642

Post by hervature »

bell-cot wrote: post #559
hervature wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I agree. With computers, people can literally teleport around the world which would have been ridiculed even 50 years ago. Probably something like "Haha, you think one day you'll be able to reach into the telephone and fix the thing on the other side, haha". I think it is an open question whether or not a sysadmin working on servers around the world is any different than paying the sysadmin to travel to…

Let's say it's 1937, and I'm a successful author enjoying life at a hotel in Italy. And writing my latest novel. Mailing chapter-by-chapter draft copies of that back and forth with my literary agent in London. Occasionally calling that agent on the (then-expensive) telephone with both questions, and instructions for him to execute on my behalf. Occasionally calling editors at various publishers (perhaps in several co…

The example you give is a clear violation, both in the past and the present. The author's feet are clearly in Italy and hence subject to Italian taxation (unless reciprocity agreement). That's not up for debate. This corresponds to the "latter" option I proposed before where the sysadmin travels around. This we are definitely aligned.

Upon reflection, I should not have said "an open question". Rather, I should have said that many feel that the spirit and intent of the law should be revisited. For many, the feet test is about resources utilization. Using electricity, internet, housing, etc. In the author example, the author is clearly making a choice to live at that hotel. Back when the law was written, I think this would have covered most cases. However, now, the modal case are "digital nomads" where the normal thing is to not spend more than 1 week - 1 month in a single place. Oftentimes, the destination doesn't matter, but the journey. In the extreme, imagine spending 2 days in every country in the world, in perpetual motion. This has always been a possibility and the law covers this case (as we both know) but I think people are beginning to question if it makes sense given the new distribution brought by the internet. To come back to the sysadmin example, the point was that the sysadmin is utilizing the same global resources except for maybe an additional epsilon as they move around to the different localities. Many feel that the locality does not provide anything in return for the right to tax the income.

Re: Airbnb’s design to live and work anywhere

#643

Post by mensetmanusman »

afavour wrote: post #466
oxfordmale wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a legal loophole for digital nomads. If I am connected to my work via a VPN, I am technically still working in the country of employment. I am not producing any commercial output in the country I am staying that I or my employer benefits from beneficially. I am 100% confident this has been reviewed by well paid lawyers at AirBnb who have zero sense of adventure, and that this is all water tight.

> If I am connected to my work via a VPN, I am technically still working in the country of employment. I hope this is sarcasm. A VPN is a technical detail that would never stand up, legally. The only situation where I can see a VPN being useful is within your own company: if they don't want you working remotely a VPN might help cover up the fact that you are. But aside from that it won't help you.

Law is all technical details and abstractions though.

Where are you working if you are flying above various states and countries while VPNd?

Re: Airbnb’s design to live and work anywhere

#644

Post by mensetmanusman »

CorrectHorseBat wrote: post #421
krzyk wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws are still written for those doing manual labor. What's the difference if I do some work in the evening at home or during my holiday in e.g. Greece? The only added cost in given country is energy. Problems start to appear if I get sick, but that should be on myself - and in most cases (for EU citizen) it is most appropriate to return home to cure/hospitalize (unless it is something needing immediate help).

There are also other issues. What with labor laws? Should you follow the laws from the country from where you work or where the company is located? Companies would just get a post box in the country with the weakest labour laws. The simplest solution stays that the laws where you physically are apply.

This already happens, that’s why every company is incorporated in Delaware.

Re: Airbnb’s design to live and work anywhere

#645

Post by hervature »

schrodinger wrote: post #565
hervature wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many others have chimed in, but this is very important to highlight. Meeting with clients, going to conference, having important meetings, these are things we consider work. However, from the eyes of the law, these are temporary things that need to be done in person for business that has already occurred. That is, if you come to a conference, meet a potential client, and then set up a sales meeting before you leave,…

There must be some exception to this. I am a US citizen working for a London company and a few times a year I go over, explicitly telling the immigration officer it's for "business meetings," and that's explicitly allowed. I couldn't just go work for the hell of it but as a manager of a team it makes sense I make special occasion trips. Technically they could ask me to produce a letter from my employer explicitly con…

Yes, business meetings (and the things in this spirit) are the exceptions. However, you certainly cannot say "I feel like doing my normal job in London this week". Now, let's say you go to London for one important meeting and spend the rest of the day working as you don't want to waste your time, ok, no one is going to ask questions. But, if you go to London for one meeting and work there for the rest of the month, you are in clear violation. Is anyone going to hunt you down? Probably not. Are you breaking the intent of business visas? Definitely.

Re: Airbnb’s design to live and work anywhere

#646

Post by gongdzhauh »

zengineer wrote: post #326

I hope they add a "remote working approved" tag and filter, just like the "superhost". I have been working remotely since almost a year now in several European countries and to filter out AirBnBs, which offer a decent desk and have stable internet takes hours. The "workstation" filter can not be trusted and neither the "has Wifi", which doesn't say anything about the quality. An internet speed test should be required…

I don't think I'd ever book a place that didn't explicitly list Internet speed if I were to work there and I hate that AirBnB doesn't easily provide this information. The last time I booked a place like that they claimed to have "professional grade" Internet which ended up being a 15mbps down/ 4mbps up connection. Surprisingly (to me at least) that was enough for most video calls.

Re: Airbnb’s design to live and work anywhere

#647

Post by toomanyrichies »

ajkjk wrote: post #494
carlivar wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Found the management.

Cynical comment, don't you think? I like open offices and I'm a dev. It's not that inconceivable that people have different preferences, right?

The person to whom you're responding probably made that comment because of GP's statement "I think a lot of people who spend work hours browsing the web don't like them." Which in itself is pretty cynical.

As a fellow dev, I dislike open office plans, but not because I spend my day browsing the web. I dislike them because I'm rather noise-sensitive, and it's hard for me to tune out the sound of ping-pong balls being batted back and forth. I can't just put on headphones, because my team pair-programs extensively. With WFH, I can pair program and not deal with that or the myriad of other aural distractions.

That said, I appreciate your comments on this post and yes, I wholeheartedly agree that the preferences of folks who prefer WFO are just as valid as those of us who prefer WHF. Plenty of room for both in the world. :-)

And with that, I'm off to play today's Wordle while half-listening to a Zoom meeting.

Re: Airbnb’s design to live and work anywhere

#648

Post by ghaff »

el-salvador wrote: post #578
ghaff wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I (from US) can't speak to the actual laws. But with respect to "what's checked," I've been asked the purpose of my visit at immigration in countless countries around the world and I'm always completely open about attending conferences and meeting with customers and no one over decades has batted an eye. (Of course in the handful of countries I did explicitly need business visas--like China--I got one.) Of course, th…

> I'm always completely open about attending conferences and meeting with customers and no one over decades has batted an eye. Attending conferences is usually ok, but it's a complicated topic because it depends on the traveller's passport, the visited country and how strict rules are enforced. As a foreign national, for example a U.S. B1 visa allows attending conferences and close business deals. But it doesn't expl…

Of course, even a B1 isn't a tourist visa. A B2 (US tourist visa) specifically doesn't include non-social events.

In any case, in most countries whether explicit or implicit that distinction is probably the right one. Of course, no one is going to care or know if you check some emails and do some work--just like no one cared if you made some phone calls and did some work years ago.

But, in most places, you probably shouldn't show up and say you'll be spending the next 90 days working remotely.

Re: Airbnb’s design to live and work anywhere

#649

Post by ghaff »

dheera wrote: post #626
wombatpm wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That works because it’s a 1099 situation. But FICA, tax withholding and health care benefits are all tied up in your place of residence. Assuming you have a driver’s license and a voters registration, there is someplace you call home otherwise you are just a hobo

Hm. So what legal framework do "hobos" use? Surely it's not illegal to be homeless with a lot of money and skills. (a) Let's say you spend 1 week in each state for 50 weeks of the year. Where do you file your taxes? (b) Let's say you spend 1 week in each of 50 countries and work for AirBNB. You have no house, and no lease on a residence. Let's say it's mutual, e.g. you want to do this, and from their perspective, it'…

wrt a.

My understanding is that it's not illegal but it basically makes it impossible to get government-issued ID, file taxes (which are legally required), open a bank account, get a credit card, etc.

So as a practical matter you probably get some traveling mailbox type service--in a state with no income tax presumably.

wrt b.

You're already a citizen somewhere. You'll still need an address there. See above. Then it's up to you and, perhaps to some degree, your employer to get appropriate visas. That said, for one week stays, an Airbnb stay during which you work an unknown amount of time remotely as opposed to being a tourist seems pretty doable so long as you keep a low profile and the company is cool with it.

Re: Airbnb’s design to live and work anywhere

#650

Post by da39a3ee »

pc86 wrote: post #430
da39a3ee wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, I'm talking about comparing equally skilled and experienced employees. Can you rephrase your answer without conflating employee aptitude and CoL/local Labor market?

They're linked, intrinsically. If the someone's "market" (whether that's local, or global, or front-end, or full stack, or whatever) prices then at $80k/yr a business is going to try to pay them that much or less. Whether you want to admit it or not, locality plays a role in that.

I'm still not sure I'm understanding you. What I'm asking about is the question of compensation conditional on experience and skill being identical. So by definition, I'm taking experience/skill differences out of the picture. So we have

  Alice: backend engineer in London, able to get $120K from UK companies
  Alicia: backend engineer in NYC, able to get $250K from US companies
with identical skill/experience. And we say for the sake of argument that cost of living is identical in London and NYC.

Now suppose Alicia's company wants to hire Alice.

Certainly, I agree that it makes perfect sense in a free labor market for the US company to try to get Alice for $120K.

But the company I work for (a well-known US tech company) makes many claims about how "fair" its compensation program is. So what I'm inviting you to discuss is whether or not that company would have a hard time making an argument that adjusting according to the local labor market is actually "fair".

Essentially, Alice is being penalized for happening to be in a locality where her skills are valued less. But that is out of her control. Would it not be "fairer" for a company to adjust compensation as follows:

1. Firstly, according to skill / experience

And then, either

2a. That's it, end of story: skill / experience only.

or

2b. By local cost of living, within equivalent skill levels.

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