Live data from Hacker News

How Zillow's homebuying scheme lost $881M

fullstackeconomics.com

641–650 of 684 posts

Re: How Zillow's homebuying scheme lost $881M

#641
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“ The scary thing is that it's easy to see how something how like this could drive a market boom and bust cycle.” The opposite really. Speculators do their best to buy low which pushes the price back up toward the mean in the aggregate, and sell high, which pushes it back down toward the mean. Speculation is a stabilizing force overall. The boom and bust cycle in real estate is very real, but driven by other things.

> Speculation is a stabilizing force overall. a sophisticated speculator is. an unsophisticated speculator is actually destabilizing, because they might incorrectly speculate capital (that they cannot really afford), causing a loss in market efficiency in allocating capital to where it's needed. The 2008 GFC is in part caused by unsophisticated speculators (home buyers) to speculate on property. Initially they saw so…

You made it halfway there. Keep going.

What happens when that unsophisticatded speculator purchases a bunch of properties at prices above what they're worth? If he can't make the payments on them, eventually he'll be forced to sell, or perhaps even declare bankruptcy.

Those properties will eventually be sold at the market equilibrium price, possibly even lower than that because he will likely need to sell in a hurry to meet his obligations, or because a bank forclosed on him and wants the money now and will also accept a below market price to liquidate them quickly.

Which is exactly what happened to Zillow. They realized they paid too much and couldn't make money with them and are now unwinding their position at a loss.

The 2008 crash was caused by fraud on the part of consumers on their loan applications. It was not caused by speculation. Income was not properly documented on a lot of those loans. Many lenders actually did verify income and required a significant down payment from buyers, and weathered the crisis well.

The fraud coupled with low down payment requirements turned these loans into very risky assets, but the banks securitized them and sold them to third parties, who percieved them as nearly risk free assets. The real scandal was that those assets were rated as very low risk by Moody's and S&P but turned out to be basically junk quality.

And then lots of investors used leverage to buy them and, lo and behold, they were not risk free assets, and the use of leverage when investing in those securities destroyed a lot of investors and institutions when those securities stopped performing. The fact that the ratings agencies stamped the assets as very low risk is the real scandal: banks thought they were almost as good as treasury bonds and they clearly were not.

After the crash, a lot of those securities got picked up at basment bargain prices, and most of them actually did peform fairly well, with 90%+ of individual loans performing. I invested in a company that picked up a lot of those securities at fire sale prices after the crash and did pretty well.

Which gets back to my original point: speculation is only a destabilizing force if the speculators are not well capitalized against losses, and things move against them.

The 2008 crash would have turned out differently if the purchasers of those loans used less leverage or were better capitalized, or did their own due dilligence when investing.

Re: How Zillow's homebuying scheme lost $881M

#642
post #40

The scary thing is that it's easy to see how something how like this could drive a market boom and bust cycle. I'm imagining a scenario where two iBuyer companies try to outbid each other algorithmically, driving the prices further and further out of reach of people who are looking for a primary home. Tangentially related, I talked to a friend who works on geospatial data for one of the big vacation rental companies,…

One can blame Airbnb, Zillow or whoever else, but the truth is that speculation in real estate and vacation towns have both been a thing for a very long time. If the population rises and we refuse to build more houses, the existing ones will get more expensive no matter what. The solution is out there in front of us but everyone prefers to dance around it.

In addition to the rising need for housing vs the number of new ones is leaving homes vacant. E.g., allegedly about 10% of San Francisco's housing stock is vacant. As with stocks, investors don't buy them anymore because of dividends, but only to hope they rise in value.

https://hostagenews.com/report-10-of-san-franciscos-housing-...

Re: How Zillow's homebuying scheme lost $881M

#643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People not being able to own homes is not "healthy". Having to pay 50% of your salary to landlords is not "healthy". It is concentration of wealth, it is the very definition of precarity. Unless your hope is to see a collapse of societies, things go really bad when people can't afford fundamental needs.

You replied without understanding my comment. Let me pose the question back to you: if everyone can comfortably afford food, housing and basic necessities, what is going to cause population growth to level off? Your characterization of bad things happening is exactly my point - you’re just failing to understand that I’m saying that’s the healthy part.

[dead]

Re: How Zillow's homebuying scheme lost $881M

#644
post #300

The scary thing is that it's easy to see how something how like this could drive a market boom and bust cycle. I'm imagining a scenario where two iBuyer companies try to outbid each other algorithmically, driving the prices further and further out of reach of people who are looking for a primary home. Tangentially related, I talked to a friend who works on geospatial data for one of the big vacation rental companies,…

We need a land value tax or at the very least higher property taxes. That would disincentivize people from speculating into housing. It's no surprise that cities with the highest home prices have some of the lowest effective property tax rates.

"We need a land value tax or at the very least higher property taxes. That would disincentivize people from speculating into housing."

That's like saying we need a bilge pump for our basement to fix that leaky pipe. You've properly diagnosed the problem, but your solution is idiotic.

Why are people piling into hosuing right now? Answer that question and the solution becomes exceedingly obvious. It's the same reason Bill Gates and his ultra-rich friends are buying up farmland in the Midwest and the same reason people are buying into the stock market so heavily. They're trying to avoid inflation.

Inflation was 8% year over year last month. The last thing any investor wants to hold right now is dollars. If inflation stays steady for the next 12 months, you are guaranteed a value loss of 8% if you just leave it in the bank. Almost anything, baseball cards, used cars, copper pipes, etc. is a better investment than that.

And on top of that, people are realizing they can borrow $400k from the bank at 4% when inflation is raging at 8%. It's literally free money, with leverage to boot. There is no easier and faster way to use leverage to short the dollar right now than investing in real estate. It's no wonder housing prices are going nuts. Everyone and their dog is trying to avoid inflation, and the rush to buy housing exacerbates the price increases even further.

The solution to the issue is one no one will ever get behind: raise interest rates such that the real rate of inflation (nominal interest rate minus the inflation rate) is positive. That means that if inflation is 8%, interest rates need to be at least 8%.

And that's why the problem will persist for many years into the future: there is no way anyone at any level of our society will tolerate 8%+ interest rates. The housing market would collapse in such a way that 2008 would look like child's play. The bond markets would get destroyed. The stock market will absolutely crater 50%, easily. The interest due on the federal debt would go to astronomical levels, resulting in ridiculous tax increases to pay for it.

That's the solution. Or, the government can just let inflation run rampant for a few years, and default on the debt without having to not pay anyone, and without having to have a big old nasty recession. We'll just have the 1970's style stagflation for the next decade.

For those reasons inflation is here to stay. If you can find a better way to short the dollar over the next 10 years and use leverage to do it, by god, that's the best investment you can make right now.

But the saddest part of this whole ordeal is that at some point in the future, the only way to solve this inflation crisis is to do exactly what I described: make interest rates positive again. That is the lesson of the 1970's.

They tried to raise rates several times, but they never raised them enough such that the real interest rate was positive, and as you'd expect, any time the Fed got close to getting there, the economy teetered on the brink of a recession, and there was an election coming up, and well, they chickened out and lowered rates again.

Regan's election was very much a result of the economic devestation of the 1970's. Another moral of the story is that if you don't want fiscally conservative reupblican's like Regan to get elected, the guy in the White House had better deal with this shit soon.

But my money is on Desantis in 2028 after we see year over year inflation rates of 15%+ for most of the 2020's. You heard it here first.

Re: How Zillow's homebuying scheme lost $881M

#645
post #524
post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s an odd takeaway from an article speaking of a 22+ rent from increase due to COVID bounce-back. Ultra short term trends aren’t particularly relevant compared to long term trends. One clear the example of the outsized impact is these buildings bought up air rights from multiple properties. So, they reduced the legally available space. When the city makes space for ~100,000 apartments and actually gets less than…

the air rights are a bit of a red herring, because if the people in the city chooses to, they can easily abolish air rights, and allow buildings that previously sold their air rights to build it again! And a couple of tall buildings in manhattan isn't gonna be making any difference. The difference would come from building denser everywhere.

That's not how property rights in America work.

Re: How Zillow's homebuying scheme lost $881M

#646
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so alien to me. Why don’t you sell the place? Staying the owner of this place makes it so that you can’t spend your money tied up in this house, and this house can’t provide its roof to someone. Seems like both of you loose.

> This is so alien to me. Why don’t you sell the place? Selling might trigger a very large tax liability, depending on original cost vs. current price. When that is the case, it's better to keep it in case you might want to return to the area in the future.

The first $500k of appreciation is tax free. The rest is long term capital gains. If you want to minimize taxes, you should sell your house every time it appreciates in value by 500k and buy a new one. As long as you don't do so more than once every 2 or 3 years, which is how long it takes to reset the tax free increase.

Re: How Zillow's homebuying scheme lost $881M

#647
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you feel about the ethical aspect? Now the home is not useful, except as an investment to you, but if you sold it there’s lots of ways you could make money instead (and in ways that provide value to others!). And the place would be someone’s home. Seems weird to let it be stay empty like that.

I had hoped to not wade too deep into this discussion for privacy reasons, but essentially I have quasi-rented it to someone close to me who I trust, and isn't in need of the place. They cover the utilities they use, and I don't charge them rent. Still, you have a valid point. I honestly don't like the AirBnBification of neighborhoods across the world. But, the time commitment I need right now to get licensure and th…

You may not be part of the global super elite billionaires, but you certainly sound like a member of the global elite.

Re: How Zillow's homebuying scheme lost $881M

#648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulations where you'd specify minimum floor size, or rooms per person make sense for me. It's about straight up saying you can't live with people without state sanctioning the relationship.

In my region, the rules are so incredibly precise . Things like washing up areas must have at least 3 bowels in. Toilets must have flush handles above a certain height and below another height. Radiators must have 6 heat settings... Etc. The entire aim seems to be to make running such a house not illegal, but very difficult and very expensive.

Precise laws are usually because enumerating every single bad alternative is an issue, so they just tell you what is permissible.

Besides, such specificity is usually drawn from building code best practices, which advocate for standardization. Which means that manufacturers don't bother creating radiators with less than six heat settings.

Re: How Zillow's homebuying scheme lost $881M

#649

The scary thing is that it's easy to see how something how like this could drive a market boom and bust cycle. I'm imagining a scenario where two iBuyer companies try to outbid each other algorithmically, driving the prices further and further out of reach of people who are looking for a primary home. Tangentially related, I talked to a friend who works on geospatial data for one of the big vacation rental companies,…

> The scary thing is that it's easy to see how something how like this could drive a market boom and bust cycle. It would take a lot more than a billion dollars to make a dent in the national housing market. Total housing sales in Feb22 amounted to $161 billion. That's enough to make a temporary splash in a rural market, but Zillow would need to spend 100x more than what they lost to even move the needle. And spend 1…

Zillow lost almost $1 billion. The total transaction amount was much higher.

Re: How Zillow's homebuying scheme lost $881M

#650

The scary thing is that it's easy to see how something how like this could drive a market boom and bust cycle. I'm imagining a scenario where two iBuyer companies try to outbid each other algorithmically, driving the prices further and further out of reach of people who are looking for a primary home. Tangentially related, I talked to a friend who works on geospatial data for one of the big vacation rental companies,…

The problem is not about homes being overpriced. The truth is that there is much much much more money in the middle class globally (almost 3x that of 2000) and on top of that the normal inflation, and freezing of supply. As long as “desirable location” stay the same, and the amount of people affording it growing so significantly. The expectation of being able to afford one is a strange one. See https://www.nasdaq.com…

A bunch of Chinese and Indian people increasing their standard of living to middle class doesn't suddenly mean American middle class people (whose asset percentage has been shrinking) can afford US houses.

Global middle class is meaningless in this discussion

Post reply on HN