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IBM’s Watson Health is sold off in parts

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Re: IBM’s Watson Health is sold off in parts

#641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because they want to talk to the most power in the decision but with the least information as to how the problem could be solved without the help of Oracle/IBM/whoever.

One would think the decision makers would trust the technical advice of the smart people they've hired instead of the opinion of some obviously lying salesman...

Considering that the buzzword shooting, smooth talking sales rep offering an easy to solution to, well, all of the problems is much closer to how most C-Level guys (in established companies at least) think, I'm not surprised anymore. This till manages to chock me from time to time, so.

Re: IBM’s Watson Health is sold off in parts

#642
post #435

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Funny, similar thing happened to me. IBM along a few other behemots pitched for a serious project at a company I worked for as enterprise arch. All companies brought their top salespeople, and all tried nasty things, but IBM was by far the worst. Their top guy started their pitch by saying he chatted with our CEO over the christmas holidays. He mentioned - and I am not making this up - that he should be talking to pe…

I was involved in a small project, and we were running low on the money runway for next phase. The IBM sales guy literally barged into a FORTUNE 50 CIOs office, without an appointment, asking for budget to be approved for the next phase. project continued, but I never saw the sales guy again. The team had a good chuckle and I never understood what the guy was thinking he would achieve with this tactic.

IMHO that is like kids and lying. More often than not, the right answer to the question "Why are you doing this, when we always catch you?" is "Because it works more often than you catching me lying and also because you don't even get that".

Re: IBM’s Watson Health is sold off in parts

#643
post #386

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> I generally dismiss these “equivalent outcome” studies. Any midlevel will (and should) bounce the more complicated cases to their supervising physicians. Outcomes at that point are meaningless. If midlevels can successfully detect complicated cases to a supervising physician, and handle a whole lot of other care independently... and the net result is equivalent outcomes... this isn't a massive win? You've conserved…

It's not so clear cut for a few reasons. #1 - Funky/misleading statistics - Generally they claim that these NPs with uncomplicated patients do as well as physicians with complicated patients. It's not claiming that of any randomly selected patient, regardless of who they see, the outcome is the same. Therefore, if uncomplicated patients saw physicians, outcomes for the physicians could improve. In primary care managi…

> Generally they claim that these NPs with uncomplicated patients do as well as physicians with complicated patients.

The studies I've seen have compared practices where NPs are seen first vs. physicians are seen first.

> They're not conserving expensive resources. Imagine a patient comes in with a lump on their hand. An NP might see a weird lump, order an MRI which gets read by a radiologist, refer to an orthopedic surgeon who specializes in the hand, who removes tissue to send to a pathologist, who determines it's a common benign tumor of the fascia. That's three physicians who spent much more time here!

Your claim is this kind of excessive testing and referral doesn't happen with physicians? Do you have some kind of evidence this is more common with NPs?

This kind of overtesting leading to unnecessary procedures and bad outcomes has been pervasive through care in the US. Don't blame it on NPs.

> Bad incentives - Medicaid would not in a million years cover this, but the game of medical pinball where patients bounce around through in-network referrals can funnel those with decent insurance into procedures. Especially when most people have poor health literacy. A hospital executive probably just splooged in his pants seeing how much money their loss-leader of primary care is driving to radiology and the surgical specialties where they actually make money.

Ditto

> It's insincere. All of this can be viewed as possibly successful when the midlevels are part of the healthcare _team_ and know their limitations. But the NP groups are increasingly pushing for independent practice and prescribing rights in state legislatures across the country. CRNAs require a physician supervisor...

Welp, we're not creating anywhere near enough residencies to create enough physicians to do the work, so I'd suggest we'd figure out ways to either do that or use people with lower levels of training well (preferably both!).

Re: IBM’s Watson Health is sold off in parts

#644

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Most big tech companies got out of or significantly scaled back their blockchain business, it is solution chasing a problem. The web3 people apparently haven’t caught on yet https://petri.com/blockchain-bust-microsoft-joins-ibm-with-b...

I think secretly they are aiming for the digital currency aspect of blockchain, e.g. Bitcoin but couldn't understand how it works as MBA schools havn't mint out bitcoin graduates yet. Maybe in abother 10 years.

The cargo cult of blockchain!

Re: IBM’s Watson Health is sold off in parts

#645

I worked for a large e-commerce company. I wanted to investigate putting all our support data into Watson and see what sort of recommendations it could provide, maybe a sort of auto-suggestion to help our customers. Three really funny points stand out from the experience: 1) To apply for Watson access you needed to show C-level approval, so our CEO put his name and phone number on the application (trying Watson was s…

I concur with the experience of dealing with IBM sales.

Years ago my client wanted me to checkout out IBM mobile app builder - Worklight, The pricing wasn't available on website and so I had to contact them. Soon I was reached out by their sales department and before I could get any details on the pricing I was speaking with VP of sales.

If I remember it correctly, It was priced ~>150K USD and even after repeatedly telling the VP that I was just exploring what their product was, The VP told me he was ready to fly in to my office the same week to 'talk further'. It was weird to end that conversation with them and my client had a good laugh when I shared the experience.

I don't get why IBM finds it hard to deal with Startups, All other behemoths (MS/Amazon/Google etc.) have successfully created products for Startups often by offering generous freebies and 'Pay as you go' plans . Where as IBM still thinks they can slap Fortune 500 pricing on entry-level startups.

I guess as long as those Fortune 500 companies & even Govt. fall for that Watson type products, They don't have a reason to change.

Re: IBM’s Watson Health is sold off in parts

#646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't shirts in that range having diminshing returns? like couldn't get a $100 shirt that covers most of the benefits? there has to be a optimal local maximum there right?

Not if you’re in sales, I’d guess. It almost literally tells your target C-suite that you’re cut from the same cloth and to ignore the bleating of underlings. It’s a peripheral cue calibrated to increase bonding and trust. “These are my people. I’m safe with them.”

I guess it's sortof like going into a "hackers" convention and seeing people typing on a 3$ Dell keyboard. Those are not our people. However, the guys in the corner with DasKeyboard or Happy Hacking Keyboard; those ARE our people.

Re: IBM’s Watson Health is sold off in parts

#647
post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because they want to talk to the most power in the decision but with the least information as to how the problem could be solved without the help of Oracle/IBM/whoever.

This, 100%. Think about it another way: IBM et al. sales only lose by talking to lower-title folks. Best case, they lose control of the narrative as it's reported up internally, and someone higher up still has to approve it. Worst case, some engineer who actually knows their shit very quickly outlines why this can never work for the given problem. Once you're into the VP level, there's (usually) less technical knowle…

But wouldn't a competent VP, C-level just shrug and say 'I want technical approval first from my teams, we don't do favorites here, my time is precious and you're making me lose precious amount of it? I had a business unit manager answer that to such queries that way and it felt like good management... Isn't the whole shtick about management to be able to delegate and trust your org?

Re: IBM’s Watson Health is sold off in parts

#648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deep Blue isn't ML at all, it's just a purpose built system for solving chess. It doesn't learn anything as such and just a fancy brute forcing machine that (smartly) goes through all possible chess moves and selects the best possible tree of outcomes. The work on actual ML happened independently of this.

mehh feels like we are creating fancy ML brute force crunching machines now

Now = last 40 years

Re: IBM’s Watson Health is sold off in parts

#649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, my experience of private enterprise is that they insist on doing things hard, slow and very custom. Almost every problem that exists is distinct enough that you can argue it doesn't fit the existing COTS software. It's sometimes necesary to build something yourself, but no where near as often as it is done.

If I remember correctly, John Ralston Saul made the point [0] that there is little observed difference in terms of the efficiency of decision making between large government and large corporations. My personal experience is that large organisations and government are barely distinguishable. This is often excused in the name of "risk mitigation" - but in my experience it's really just that there are more snouts in the…

This is been my anecdotal experience.

In the UK, I note that politicians extolling the efficiency of the private sector rarely have any substantial experience in big companies.

Re: IBM’s Watson Health is sold off in parts

#650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is "direct marketing" (drug reps) verboten but an article paid for by the same company is legitimate? What if the reason for the drug rep's visit is to bring a copy of the article to the doctor?

> Why is "direct marketing" (drug reps) verboten but an article paid for by the same company is legitimate? Scientific articles are published and read by the community. There are, for example, social media and messaging groups where doctors will post and discuss articles, including their methododology and limitations. There's always the possibility that the study could actually be relevant. Drug company representatit…

> Drug company representatitives talk to doctors in private in order to try and convince them to prescribe drugs.

Everything a drug company does is ultimately about selling more drugs. It's not limited to the drug reps.

> they're overstating the positives, downplaying the negatives and ignoring alternatives

Again, not at all exclusive to drug reps. This behavior can be traced all the way back to Phase I of the clinical trial.

Your position in this thread makes no sense. I stated the drug reps help doctors stay up to date on the latest drugs and treatments, you disagreed and said doctors should "study. continuously." What should they study? Articles sponsored by the drug companies. How can you square that? Further, I'm sure you're aware that only a tiny percentage of doctors actually read the fancy journals and fewer understand the statistics and the details (perhaps those are the docs who sit around on the message boards you mention). For the other 90+%, the drug reps are the conduit who deliver relevant info to doctors. Ate they aggressive? Yes. Sneaky? Sometimes. Ultimately, do they help doctors discover drugs that help their patients? Unless you believe the drugs being approved by the FDA are ineffective, the answer is yes.

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