I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months • Hacker News Board

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#641

Post by slim109ya » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 3:58 PM UTC

colinmhayes wrote: post #251

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never used Leetcode, but it keeps coming up here. I've been interviewer a lot lately and I keep trying to find ways to filter out the candidates that care more about interview prep than solving real problems. Is this a nonstandard perspective?

I think Leetcode is a pretty decent way to filter for people who work hard and have at least decent critical thinking skills. I guess FAANGs have concluded 1. it's easier to test for those qualities than it is to test for engineering skills 2. those are the qualities that make a good developer.

Leetcode is more about learning pattern recognition of the problem category than it is critical thinking.

What started off as "write a binary search" has turned into a massive gate-keeping process to try to select candidates who fit a profile. I'm not sure what that profile is, but I know I don't fit it. I grinded Leetcode for 2 months and failed Google, Facebook, and Amazon. I thought there was some luck involved and decided not to put any more time into it. But, I don't fault others who do.

I do think the large pay increases the candidate pool, so there has to be some form of testing. I just don't think as a senior developer, it assesses my skills.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#642

Post by cableshaft » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 3:58 PM UTC

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #603

cableshaft wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. My wife just makes sure she knows where her physical portfolio is (basically just print-outs of old proposals she's worked on), spends a couple hours reading up about the company and maybe rehearsing what answers she might give to some common behavioral questions (the cliche ones, like "What's your biggest weakness" type crap), gets her clothes ready, and makes sure she gets enough sleep. This is the night befo…

OK I'm curious, this is computer graphics crap like z-buffers (I would probably say form a binary space partition tree, color all the polygons one color and a default background as black, rasterize the view, and then trace the outline)? Or is this some trick?

I didn't figure it out in time and he didn't elaborate, just sat there and watched me flounder, so I don't know for sure. This was way back in 2012 too, so I don't remember the details of what he asked super well.

I was under the impression he was wanting me to figure out how to do it using only the bounds of the rectangles mathematically, and not by changing how it rendered, from what I can remember.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#643

Post by aojdwhsd » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 4:11 PM UTC

wiggles_uwu wrote: post #523

long time lurker, finally qualified to comment on a post. I've been with amazon for 8 years (still an employee) as a software engineer. I've concluded that your experience at amazon - both work life balance and technical - is entirely dependent on your skip manager and your org. I started with Amazon in the bay area. When I joined we were still in the very early days of our project. The work was awesome, and it felt…

Any insight you can offer into AWS support roles?

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#644

Post by danielmarkbruce » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 4:14 PM UTC

BoorishBears wrote: post #601

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"weaponize laughter" is a clever sounding spin on what was said... however... a weapon is something designed to inflict damage. The comment above is about keeping people out who will inflict damage to an organization. Maybe you could call it.. using laughter as a shield

Between this and your other comment: > The point of interviewing is to make judgements. There is no irony. This judgement is: people who assume the worst of others are toxic to work with. Whew. The saving grace here is you're so cavalier about this sort of borderline paranoia and megalomania. It tells me you won't hide it well, and the shrewd candidates will run for the hills.

You seem to be assuming bad intent....

It really is helpful, socially, to assume good intent. It avoids unnecessary arguments (/wars). Additionally, if you spend a little time digging in when you have assumed bad intent, you'll almost always find that the person has good intent, there has just been a misunderstanding, or miscommunication, or they face very different incentives or have a different set of underlying assumptions.

As for megalomania - it's likely we live in different locations/and or work in different industries. Where I am, interviewers don't hold the power. Candidates do. Especially candidates who are judged to be good. Good candidates make a judgement call as to where they want to work because they have many options. They exercise said power, negotiate higher salaries, and leave if they don't like the arrangement. And good for them, they have in demand skills and a good attitude.

I understand it isn't like this in all locations/industries.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#645

Post by danielmarkbruce » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 4:27 PM UTC

raffraffraff wrote: post #614

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several reasons that might be funny. Assuming that funny question = stupid question is going to result in you being offended quite frequently. It's google, the interviewer probably thought it was funny because what you just asked would be logical , but because of insert crazy bureaucratic reason here they can't. Most interviewers are nice people. Assuming good intent when they laugh is going to be the right…

I think it's nice to be chatty and relaxed in an interview, but a lot of people would think that laughing at a question crosses a line, unless they let you in on the joke. Like, "Do you use Kotlin?" => "Hahahaha! No. Funny thing is, earlier today we decided to rewrite the next major version in Kotlin!" I don't take offence easily but honestly if there wasn't an explanation for laughter I would straight up ask "What's…

Asking "what's funny" is a great response. And you are right - hopefully the interviewer would give an explanation for the laughter.

Re the Russian - it sort of depends if the company is mostly Russian or not. If the culture at a company is such that it's offensive to smile/laugh then it would be better for a laugher to join a different company - ie be gated out, no?

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#646

Post by strgcmc » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 4:29 PM UTC

vanusa wrote: post #466

strgcmc wrote: post #116

I see a lot of these comments have taken to a kind of Amazon-bashing and venting their own experiences, where the author actually... didn't? I thought the author was incredibly fair/objective, and at least the way I read it, it wasn't so much that he had such a miserable experience or could only stomach 10 months of pain/abuse (in fact if you actually read to the end, he praises his manager, his teammates, etc.), and…

Paraphrasing his own words, he learned a lot, met some good people, found some good practices that he's going to carry forward with him... isn't that a successful outcome? I agree that it definitely doesn't read like a straight tale of horror and abuse. But I don't see how can you sum it up it by saying "he found some good practices" when he takes care to point out, for example: Everything is Urgent (but takes foreve…

The good practices I was referring to, were things like: his praise of the documentation culture, the obsession with data security (which I read as a good thing, on behalf of customers). Of course you are right that it was definitely a mixed bag.

Your paraphrase isn't wrong either, but I would suggest a modification to it: "it will suck you dry, if either (1) you don't fit in with the company culture, or (2) you are placed in a bad situation on a team with poor leadership and high attrition".

Perhaps shockingly, not every team at Amazon is constantly quitting (e.g. my direct team in the last two years has had 1 person voluntarily leave for a better opportunity - and we wished them well, and 0 attrition otherwise), and also some people actually appreciate and gravitate towards some things like, what the author calls "team are fragile" culture (because it is in fact a kind of durability/resiliency that there is less reliance on special rockstars, irreplaceable dependencies, and that teams can be fluid but the product mostly works/lives-on).

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#647

Post by colinmhayes » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

slim109ya wrote: post #641

colinmhayes wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Leetcode is a pretty decent way to filter for people who work hard and have at least decent critical thinking skills. I guess FAANGs have concluded 1. it's easier to test for those qualities than it is to test for engineering skills 2. those are the qualities that make a good developer.

Leetcode is more about learning pattern recognition of the problem category than it is critical thinking. What started off as "write a binary search" has turned into a massive gate-keeping process to try to select candidates who fit a profile. I'm not sure what that profile is, but I know I don't fit it. I grinded Leetcode for 2 months and failed Google, Facebook, and Amazon. I thought there was some luck involved an…

Pattern recognition is critical thinking.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#648

Post by strgcmc » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 4:36 PM UTC

haswell wrote: post #406

strgcmc wrote: post #116

I see a lot of these comments have taken to a kind of Amazon-bashing and venting their own experiences, where the author actually... didn't? I thought the author was incredibly fair/objective, and at least the way I read it, it wasn't so much that he had such a miserable experience or could only stomach 10 months of pain/abuse (in fact if you actually read to the end, he praises his manager, his teammates, etc.), and…

I appreciate your comment and the nuance it brings to the conversation, but I also wonder if some of this is a distinction without a difference. Isn't the only difference between the Amazon-bashing and OP's take just a matter of delivery, tact and perspective? I personally prefer a communication style that doesn't involve bashing, and I would probably choose to write a post much like the OP, but I think it's also ver…

Well, it's definitely a distinction with a difference for the OP. If I were a hiring manager and came across his resume and the name rang a bell, and I dug up this blog post, I would have no qualms about re-hiring him at Amazon despite the short tenure (assuming I could earn the author's trust that my hypothetical new team isn't as chaotic/on-fire as what he experienced before). His ability to communicate with tact and perspective, speaks to his strong judgement and professionalism, and makes me more personally inclined to hire/re-hire him in the future (of course, he gets to decide if he's ever willing to take the plunge again).

As for whether this indicates deep flaws that it might not be the right place for just about anyone... well I think there is the existence proof that Amazon employs 10k's/100k's of people, and while it may have higher attrition than peers (does it? I don't actually know, but I'm willing to take that on faith), still at least a sizeable majority is relatively satisfied with their careers here (based on internal tech survey results). So, "not right for anyone" is definitely an over-exaggeration.

Not right for you, if you are the type of person who shares personality traits and career goals/preferences as the author? Sure, quite possibly.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#649

Post by tikiman163 » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 4:37 PM UTC

sharkweek wrote: post #25

Hey congrats on making it 10 months! "Urgent to not block progress, but also ironic that they are asking a person who has no clue what they are doing to deliver critical work" Friend of mine started a role there (this was 4-5 years ago) and was fired (sorry... more or less asked to leave, being told he could keep his signing bonus if he just left) within about six weeks because he wasn't immediately delivering on som…

I've also had engineering friends that worked for Amazon, none of them had anything positive to say about them. One interesting situation is that one of them worked for Google for several years before moving to Amazon. Less than 2 months later he quit working for Amazon and went back to Google.

I've read articles claiming that Bezos had certain opinions about people being lazy, and that he intentionally structured Amazon to make it almost impossible to get promoted. Basically, people are hired to do a specific job, and they will never be allowed to do any other job or be promoted until they quit from overwork. The exceptionally few people that both deliver the impossible and don't quit over the workload are treated as valuable, but only at the specific job they are currently doing.

From what I've been able to piece together, this was always at least somewhat true, but has gotten much worse the last few years. I think Amazon is likely going to start running dry on willing candidates in their engineering and management teams within a couple of years and we'll see them start to lose market share as a result.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#650

Post by tech_tuna » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 4:57 PM UTC

frx wrote: post #531

tech_tuna wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cognito is one of the worst. Try the CloudHSM sometime if you're not feeling suicidal. The whole Amplify/AppSync stack is another massive tire fire.

Do you have any recommendations for authentication services? I agree Cognito is not a good tool. However, it does integrate well with other AWS services (ex: Api gateway). If there is a 3rd party service or tool that we can use instead of Cognito and if it also works well with other AWS services (Amplify, Api gateway) that would be awesome.

Auth0 or Okta and yes, neither is AWS native but they are much better authentication services. Okta acquired Auth0 about a year ago so I expect some consolidation of features at some point but as far as I know that has not happened yet.