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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#641

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

The situation sounds very similar to what happened in Argentina. About 30 years ago, Argentina's education level was good. In the name of social justice , high school standards were significantly lowered by the populist/socialist ruling party. Low grades started to be considered 'stigmatizing' for the students. The effect is that now there are some children that finish high school without being able to read fluently.

Don't be like Argentina.

However, regarding math, if there are cognitive research studies that justify delaying some topics, I don't consider that as negative.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#642
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have taken exposure over nothing. I had to teach myself - as an adult - calculus, linear algebra, probability (outside of the ever-so-brief introduction in school) and trigonometry. I personally don't think I did a very good job as my own teacher either. 3Blue1Brown was a lifesaver and every now and again I try to brush up on the topics - not for my benefit at all but for my child's benefit in the future. I think…

> Half of what I learned isn't even true anymore or were partial truths/mostly lies This is true of most levels of education. What you learn in elementary turns out to be bullshit because of what you learn in high school which turns out to be bullshit because of what you learn in undergrad which turns out to be bullshit because of graduate school which turns out to be bullshit because of the work of an army of scient…

Yes, but often times the army of scientists had already done their work. Even in the late 90's a lot of what I was learning was already known to be false but the updates hadn't yet hit by textbooks published in 1982. The teachers even sometimes already knew it to be wrong but had to teach it anyway because it was still considered part of the state curriculum. But the more common and larger issue was the partial truths/mostly lies - even if some of the lies are arguably justified to make learning easier for some kids. The better teachers wouldn't lie but would simply say "You'll be taught about that later in a higher grade".

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#643
post #496

Like many readers of HN, I've taken a lot of math over the years--at least 25 semester long courses at the university level. So I have well informed opinions about what works and what doesn't work for me ; schools, on the other hand, have to educate everyone. This, perhaps, accounts for the wide range of opinions being expressed here. I think that we can agree that the whatever they are doing in the United States isn…

The real problem will never be solved because it will never be named. I will probably get flagged, dead just for writing this. Whites and Asians in America perform far better on PSIA than the international average; the American Asians better than Asia, the whites better than Europe, mostly.

No, the inconvenient truth of the matter is that american blacks (and Hispanics? Not sure) drag down the scores. This score, and every score that we have yet devised. Every measure of intelligence that we can think of, every control for income and parents, every statistical trick to attempt some socially acceptable explanation, it all comes up the same way: they're just not as smart. The natural attempt to handwave this as some kind of systemic racism is thwarted by the existence of those poor Asians who perform better than whites; this is another inconvenience and is why Asians are being quietly dropped from "PoC" initiatives and measurements. Californian education reform is all a song and dance to desperately ignore this fact. When you have a group of people who are less smart, and the goal is that they achieve the same level as everyone else, what can you do? Well, you can give them more class time and free tutoring, but no one will support an initiative where some students take extra classes. There simply is no solution apart from lowering the ceiling. And since the governing bodies refuse to stop measuring everything by race, they also refuse to simply segregate based on ability, since this would show too many blacks in the lower performing classes.

This problem will literally never be solved under the current mode of thinking. It can't be, because those in charge are adamant about rejecting reality. No solution can be had if the problem cannot be identified. They will continue lowering the ceiling, and they may eventually lower it enough to get an equitable result. But those pesky private schools and tutors will still be around ruining their plans, and if there ever still exists a high educational standard out there somewhere, it's the tutored and the private schooled who will pass that bar. And at that point then it actually will be because of privilege.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#644
post #596
post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned how to read in Spanish, and very shortly thereafter I moved to an English country. Totally different. You just cant compare a phonetic language to one like English. My daughter is now learning how to read in the best school in my city and its taking her over year compared to me. We started at roughly the same age, but she and her classmates are struggling through hours of practice. “Thats a sharp e honey” “…

My kid’s school had them start English in grade 1, learning both languages in parallel, with English being complete immersion (not a word of German spoken and even in a couple of cases hiring teachers who spoke no German). The kids learned both languages at the same rate. My story is just anecdote, not science, of course, as is yours. I noticed that a number of the German parents had the same concerns as you, because…

Im not at all surprised that they learned at the same rate. Their English reading was bootstrapped by the German.

Likewise, I could mostly read English when I arrived in the new country despite not being able to say or understand a single word. This is because English is, maybe, 75% phonetic and I had already figured reading out.

Reading is not just memorizing characters and phonemes, but being able to join everything into a fluid mental motion. In english, practice of their fluidity is constantly being interrupted by an adult having to tell the kid which sound variation a vowel has

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I would add that the spirit of system is realising that people have different abilities and training them accordingly to their potential, and there is nothing wrong with that. Realschule and Hauptschule are not there to try to get everyone back into gymnasium track. The merits of Realschule and Hauptschule are well established in society since they are the pipeline of people that end up in practical and tech…

> they are the pipeline of people that end up in practical and technical jobs e.g. doing machine maintenance in factories and so on. These jobs are going away in the near future. Nowadays the only people who work in factories are highly skilled engineers with complex e.g. CNC skills and a heavy math background.

Oh my god!!! Sorry to react like this... Other people already commented that... That is sooooo much disconnected from reality it shows you never went to a factory floor. You never seen anything being produced in mass scale. Even the poster wall robot arms doing welding work need hundreds of people taking care of their set up, maintenance and much more. And those are complex machines. Even simpler machines such as steel presses that take in steel rolls and make steal parts of all shapes and sizes (e.g. car breaks, fridge doors, anything with steel actually) take a huge amount of set up work, management and maintenance. In Germany (which I know well) you see plenty of kids (18yos) in factories learning all these detaild skills from older workers. Takes them some years to become good and they are very sought after. Companies do worry if can get good high school kids to take their aprentiships. This has ZERO to do with higher math or bachelor's degree engeneiring education.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved to the US only 2 years ago, so am still learning about the system. As far as I can tell, the reasons for not using standardized test scores (such as the SAT and ACT) are that: 1. Using only these scores would boost the proportion of elite university places awarded to Asians, who are already 'overrepresented' relative to their share of the population. Propel state various reasons why this is undesirable (equit…

And the problems would have worsen without standardised test. Most of the other common entrance criteria, eg write an essay, would favour the rich who can seek a lot of outside help to "proofread" their essay. With standardised tests at least you have to do it on your own.

UC is 'solving' this by using 13 factors, allowing them to pick students without reference to objective criteria:

https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/how-to-apply/ap...

This will allow them to achieve any desired demographic/ethnic mix.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#647
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm British. For the lulz I decided to complete the US "GED": "The General Educational Development (GED) tests are a group of four subject tests which, when passed, provide certification that the test taker has United States or Canadian high school-level academic skills." (Wikipedia) I had not looked at what it encompassed before I signed up. I was given a huge book to study from. I glanced at it briefly each day for…

... Do you laugh with your friends about how one time you studied for two weeks and took the GED tests? There must have been some use in taking it for you, right? Otherwise, I guess I am missing the joke.

Only so that I could check the box on forms to say I had a High School Diploma/GED.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm British. For the lulz I decided to complete the US "GED": "The General Educational Development (GED) tests are a group of four subject tests which, when passed, provide certification that the test taker has United States or Canadian high school-level academic skills." (Wikipedia) I had not looked at what it encompassed before I signed up. I was given a huge book to study from. I glanced at it briefly each day for…

I guess you didn’t study the part where they teach you percentiles. 99th percentile is the highest you can score and means out of 100 people taking the class, you scored higher than 99 of them. That is good, but also consider that most people taking the GED have some sort of problem preventing them from completing a regular high school diploma.

It didn't state 99th percentile on the form. It specifically says 99%. And at the bottom it explains that 99% is the highest mark and the results go from 0% to 99%.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#649
post #605

These superficial debates are in my eyes futile since they presuppose: "We ought to have a strict curriculum for a certain narrow age group." After what we have learned the last 30-50 years from cognitive sciences one has to wonder what schools are actually for, nowadays. There are most certainly not optimized for "learning" by any means. Imho to put it blatantly schools are reduced to be a effective stronghold for i…

Hijacking is an interesting term to use. Leisure got transformed into the university system by the early Church which brought about the various technological revolutions in the West.

Resources were so scarce communities could only afford to send a select few to learn to read and write and spend time on the highest levels of human thought, i.e. questions of the meaning of existence and epistemology.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#650
post #602
post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

Your comment changed my mind about the debate in California: > Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard” To be clear: I don't know enough detail about the proposal in California to judge it, but the idea that most children might be better off learning certain subjects at a later age, when they are more mature, cannot be dismissed a priori, without facts, based on ideological arguments. Your comment reminds m…

> the idea that most children might be better off learning certain subjects at a later age, when they are more mature, cannot be dismissed a priori, without facts

Neither should it be accepted a priori. It would be a compelling reason to delay math instruction, if supported by evidence - but is there any evidence to support it?

And if improving education by delaying instruction until students are mature enough to handle the material is truly the goal, why delay instruction for students who are already mature enough to handle it sooner? Holding back students who are ready doesn't improve education for anyone.

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