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Bitcoin is a Ponzi

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641–650 of 684 posts

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#641
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They do not pretend making your money work for you by some magical scheme. No. They instead take your money, buy coal, and burn it. Nothing is left. As you say, Ponzi schemers take money for themselves and keep it. Most of what Madoff stole was recovered, for instance. Whereas virtually 100% of all money invested into crypto has been burned by miners. This is pretty easy to model. So there’s nothing left to recover…

>No. They instead take your money, buy coal, and burn it. Nothing is left. Yes, miners “take your money” but only a portion of every transaction as a service fee for processing your transaction. This is a payment for a service, the value of which is predicated on a service immediately provided rather than a promise for future value. Also “nothing is left” is also a false statement as most of the bitcoin/money process…

So unless you burn cash in a fire or counterfeit money, the only entity that can create and destroy money is the Federal Reserve.

Everyone else can only create "value". So I can combine two widgets together to make a third widget and sell it for less than you could do it. That's "value" in a nutshell.

So on an exchange balance sheet (stockmarket, coinbase, etc), dollars aren't created or destroyed, just transferred for something of perceived value. So I trade one dollar for a fraction of AMD Stock, e.g. But the dollar goes to whoever sold me AMD. The price of AMD stock can go up and down ("value") but the total dollars created or destroyed is always zero. Same is true with BTC.

Right, makes sense? Good.

So every transaction in BTC has a "cost" associated with it, where some "value" of BTC is transferred to miners. The miners spend money burning energy which removes "value" from the economy as a whole. Basically that means we had "X" many tons of fossil fuels left on Earth, but now we have slightly less because energy was "burned" for the transaction.

If I give you a ton of coal you can burn that for heat. But that removes the coal permanently from the world. OTOH, if I want to make a cryptocurrency with 10^86 coins and if I do that a billion times over, well, I have a limitless supply of cryptocurrency.

If you look at the situation as a flow of dollars you see an equation that looks like this:

BTC bought in dollars = BTC Sold in dollars + Mining Costs in dollars.

So while dollars flow back and forth, some have to go to the miners to burn physical energy. That incurs real world costs. So "value" has to be extracted and transferred to the energy companies to "burn" energy. Even if dollars aren't exchanged in the transaction, "value" has to be extracted regardless for confirmation. That value is "burned" by consuming non-renewable energy.

You might say that's exactly what credit card transactions are, (which is not incorrect) but the burn rate of Visa per transaction is much less than BTC.

This shows the cost of 1 BTC transaction vs 100K Visa transactions.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-co...

What this means is that if you reduce the "burning" cost per transaction in BTC, you can keep the value in BTC, and I'll be less cranky about it, since you're not hurting the environment.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP mispoke and meant the supply is finite.

It's not finite. The supply of cryptocurrencies is effectively infinite. There's almost no barrier to entry. In the closest historical equivalent, the wildcat banking era, at least you had to have state-chartered bank. [1] But what's it take to launch a cryptocurrency these days? Is it anything beyond a tech guy, a marketing guy, and a a credit card with a little room? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildcat_bankin…

The supply in different cryptos is infinite, but the supply of any particular crypto may or may not be infinite. In the case of bitcoin which was the topic of discussion, it's finite. To say it's not is plainly false. Your (clear) bias is blinding you.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#643
post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realise digital assets have to be created right? Your entire statement is wrong. I'm surprised you managed to write so much without realising how wrong it is. Sounds like you don't know what digital assets are, or what a ponzi scheme is. Trading cards are ponzi schemes too. From an entertainment point of view, they are created for the purpose of being fun to trade. From a monetary point of view, they are a pon…

> Trading cards are ponzi schemes too. From an entertainment point of view, they are created for the purpose of being fun to trade. No, not really. You're confusing the concept of intrinsic vs perceived value, and completely ignoring the concept of utility. People who buy cards for fun do it because it's fun, just like we could spend money to rent a sports car, go on a vacation, or drive around a test track. The mone…

Nope. Not confusing anything.

They might make a range of beanie babies, or they'll suddenly start using the range that already exists. A ponzi scheme can start anywhere in the lifecycle.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#644
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They do not pretend making your money work for you by some magical scheme. No. They instead take your money, buy coal, and burn it. Nothing is left. As you say, Ponzi schemers take money for themselves and keep it. Most of what Madoff stole was recovered, for instance. Whereas virtually 100% of all money invested into crypto has been burned by miners. This is pretty easy to model. So there’s nothing left to recover…

>No. They instead take your money, buy coal, and burn it. Nothing is left. Yes, miners “take your money” but only a portion of every transaction as a service fee for processing your transaction. This is a payment for a service, the value of which is predicated on a service immediately provided rather than a promise for future value. Also “nothing is left” is also a false statement as most of the bitcoin/money process…

The bulk of miner income is mining new bitcoins. And the money received from that goes to burning energy mostly.

So if someone new buys a miner btc at $54,000 today, that represents money paying for coal that was burnt. It isn’t profits and the money is gone. Effectively you are transforming $54,000 into burnt coal and a bitcoin.

Eg:

1. Miner expects $54,000 bitcoin sale. Takes $53,000 loan, buys coal, burns it. Gets bitcoin

2. Received $54,000, gives 1 BTC. Pays back loan

If you ask for your $54,000 back, it isn’t there. It’s gone.

(I know mining doesn’t work so precisely but that’s just a thought experiment to illustrate the dynamic)

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#645
post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gold's coveted status is fairly easy to identify. It's one of the few physical elements that is (a) somewhat rare and difficult to mine (b) has an exceptionally long shelf life, even under harsh conditions e.g. under ocean water and (c) can be authenticated with simple tests e.g. nitric acid.

(A) applies to a number of metals, including ruthenium, iridium, rhodium, and osmium, all of which are less abundant than gold. Although industrial demand has caused the price of those to rise in recent years, the difficulty of extracting them gave them essentially no value historically. Production difficulty may cause the production cost of a given asset to rise, but in a market that must also be met with equivalent…

Right, but few materials meet all of those qualities. Platinum is arguably the closest competitor.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#646
post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you mine gold, you get gold, and gold is nice. If we could magically make 100x the gold, that would be great! Current gold investors would be sad but it would be a win for the world. Bitcoin mining produces heat, and maintains the bitcoin network. It doesn’t actually increase the supply of anything: the total number of bitcoins is arbitrary. The real value is whatever the network produces (happiness in its hodle…

> If we could magically make 100x the gold, that would be great! Current gold investors would be sad but it would be a win for the world. I am not sure about that. If there were a magical new way of creating gold to inflate its supply, it would not be good for the world.

I can see why it wouldn't be good for people who are invested in gold, but I don't see why it wouldn't be good for the world.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#647
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash doesn’t intrinsically generate value. It’s value comes from your belief in it.

Yes, but Bitcoin is missing the liquidity of cash. Especially if an average transaction costs between $5 and $20

And literal cash doesn't rely upon internet connectivity to a massive global network of millions of computers in order to transfer a store of value to the dude standing next to me. As methods of payments go, it's possibly the greatest Rube Goldberg machine ever conceived.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#648
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.usfunds.com/slideshows/the-many-uses-of-gold/ Go to Coinbase and try to figure out how to use Bitcoin to buy something with. All they talk about is Bitcoin as an investment. A currency can’t be an investment as the expectation that it will rise in value undermines the main quality of a currency, which is to maintain a stable value, so it can be used as intermediary.

Go to a gold exchange and try to figure out how to use it for microchips. Coinbase has a focus on trading. However, you can use bitcoin to buy things through Coinbase Commerce.

>Go to a gold exchange and try to figure out how to use it for microchips.

The idea that gold is useful as a store of value is ridiculous. You have painted the picture perfectly with your comment. It is not easily moved. It is not easily utilized. It is worthless to the average person and it’s price is heavily inflated.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#649
This comment section is a classic case of engineers who think they understand crypto because it's digital, not realizing that Crypto is primarily an economic innovation. It's ok to admit you don't fully understand something sometimes.
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