Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing • Hacker News Board

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#641

Post by aksss » Sat, May 22, 2021, 7:29 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #589

ThinkBeat wrote: post #371

One part of the article: This is about a guy who wrote a book on his own time, published it outside of work. Someone did not like some parts of the book and the guy had to quit his job? There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. I write fictional stories in my spare time (never at work), I enjoy doing it. Some people enjoy reading them (I can't figure out why) It is a sad day for a Democracy when I…

You joke about struggle sessions but that seems to be the direction we’re headed in, just using different words. I’ve been in HR sessions where “self-criticism” is a core part of the training. All we need to do now is start throwing around terms like “counter-revolutionary ideas”. We’ve already started to label ideas as “dangerous” because they “foment discord”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-criticism_(Marxism…

Long form article, but struggle sessions are actually being done in academia now. Coming soon to an institution near you. 25 years ago we used to laugh about how batshit looney Evergreen was, now they’re still on the fringe but what we used to laugh at has become the norm in academia. This is not the path of progress. As CS Lewis said, when you determine you’re going the wrong direction, progress is actually turning around.

https://www.city-journal.org/critical-race-theory-portland-p...

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#642

Post by odiroot » Sat, May 22, 2021, 7:30 AM UTC

mattnewton wrote: post #345

smegger001 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the one that gets me is adding race to emoji. they all used to be 'Simpsons yellow', a skin tone not found in any ethnic or racial group, and as such not representing or excluding any group but now we have black white and other various skin tones for our happy-faces. WHY? Does black happy face mean something different than white happy face isn't happiness universal? why bring race into something that was simply meant…

I don’t think everyone interpreted “Simpsons yellow” as race-less. Certainly the show didn’t - On the show, Homer identifies as a white male IIRC, and some characters (like Apu) are not yellow. You have to pick some skin tone for the default; just floating features would be off putting. Believing that the pan-white default of “simpsons yellow” is raceless because you feel represented in it excludes that others might…

The Android blob emojis worked for years and people were happy with them. They were so popular that some people even backported them to newer Android versions, after they were removed.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

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Post by lucian1900 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 7:31 AM UTC

visarga wrote: post #552

greesil wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be true if there was no difference between seeking equality and justice vs. scapegoating Naziesque goose-stepping grievances. I say this as someone who gets annoyed by politically active coworkers. Not all ideologies are created equally.

> seeking equality and justice Equality of outcome or opportunity? That matters. I'd support one but not the other. I lived under Communism until 1989 and I know what equal outcome looks like after decades of having its run. There is no incentive to excel and all the incentives to conform because equality comes before merit. After some time the whole society slides into poverty. What I don't like is to put ideology o…

It’s disingenuous to blame all problems our countries had before 89 on socialism, while ignoring the constant blockade and attack from the Western European countries and the US.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#644

Post by aksss » Sat, May 22, 2021, 7:32 AM UTC

0xy wrote: post #428

ir123 wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. That's where you are wrong. He wrote some things he genuinely believed in, and its reasonable to assume that his actions will follow similar lines. Would I want a self proclaimed nazi to work with me? Hell no. Would I want a misogynist to work with me? No.

Political beliefs are a protected class in practically every first world country, including the US. If an employee was a member of a fascist party it'd quite literally be illegal to fire them on that basis.

Political beliefs are not a protected class federally but some states and DC may offer protections. I think a majority of states do not, however.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#645

Post by asdswe » Sat, May 22, 2021, 7:35 AM UTC

Politics of any kind should definitely be banned from work. Activist types that want to shove their ideology into other people's throat can definitely do that during their free time where other people can at least avoid their presence. There are always plenty of like-minded woke friends to be found from Twitter or r/socialism.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#646

Post by cercatrova » Sat, May 22, 2021, 7:40 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #374

eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

> The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. I disagree. The notion that humans turn into employer-owned production machinery for 8 hours a day is one very particular way to conceptualize work. But it ignores both the individual as a whole person and the society that contains and enables the workplace to function. To me, even as a former and perhaps future entrepr…

If I work somewhere, I am the tool that the founder uses to have wrought forth their vision. I accept that and do what must be done.

Therefore, at the same time, if I create a company, it is mine to do with as I please, to command forth to fulfill my vision.

I don't really understand the purpose of bringing "the whole person" if it doesn't matter to the work being done. It can not only be useless but actively harmful, as people get into tribalistic bouts without doing work.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#647

Post by pjc50 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 7:41 AM UTC

aksss wrote: post #635

sdenton4 wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw, 'autocracy' means "a country, state, or society governed by one person with absolute power," and has nothing to do with any of this. There's no 'auto' here, no governing, and any power involved is far from absolute... Freedom of speech doors not mean freedom from consequences for what one says. If someone says shitheel things, their 'reputation' is allowed to suffer...

Well just think about all the times in history where religious culture has the upper hand, or anti-communism, or communism. To me it doesn’t matter what the dogma of the day is, the behavior of loud elements in society shouting down free expression, or unorthodox thought, is pretty repugnant. It’s not as simple as saying society is just expressing displeasure. That’s fine, but I think we can all see a different beast…

The old political cults are still there? And still causing problems? They've just learned to be slightly less visible about it. Brigham Young university will still "cancel" you for not being straight: https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/traumatic-whiplash-b...

> Read the opening of The Three Body Problem

Yes, the cultural revolution was bad. Revolutions tend to be massive over corrections which arise because there's no peaceful way of resolving a situation and they know that in the event of a counter revolution they will all be executed. This is why Fabianism is a good idea.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#648

Post by mattparcens » Sat, May 22, 2021, 7:42 AM UTC

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #485

ErikVandeWater wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have quotes that are sexist? The only quote I have seen in articles that is supposedly sexist is about Bay Area women.

The Apple employee letter shared a number of quotes. Now, I'm not going to debate whether they are or they aren't sexist. That seems to be something that people look at through their own prism, and it doesn't seem productive to try to convince one way or the other. What matters is that enough Apple employees felt that those statements were sexist, which is an objective fact that would also be very relevant if there w…

Apple employees objectively claimed to feel that the statements were sexist.

I don’t think we can objectively distinguish someone’s claimed feelings from, say, their getting caught up in the fervor of a movement and attempting to persecute an ideological opponent, or persecuting someone chosen rather arbitrarily.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#649

Post by cercatrova » Sat, May 22, 2021, 7:43 AM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #8

eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

> The point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. What? I can’t be the only one who works directly in order to fulfill my needs (like literally my most basic needs, think food and shelter).

Seems like you're agreeing with them. You do what you need to do at work so that you can afford to buy food and shelter outside of work.

But even if not, they seem to mean personal aims to be philosophical in nature, such as political ideological furthering, not concrete like food and shelter.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#650

Post by pjc50 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 7:45 AM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #553

greesil wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be true if there was no difference between seeking equality and justice vs. scapegoating Naziesque goose-stepping grievances. I say this as someone who gets annoyed by politically active coworkers. Not all ideologies are created equally.

>Not all ideologies are created equally. Then discourage all irrelevant politics from work and give even less leeway to the "bad" ideologies. If democratic means are not sufficient to achieve political results you're happy with, then your fellow citizens are not ready for your interpretation of equality and justice. It is antithetical to leverage corporate resources to force your goal. If you happen to be politically…

> is antithetical to leverage corporate resources to force your goal

So, overturn citizens united, ban corporate PACs, and all corporate political donations? Or are you just trying to ban one side from leveraging corporate resources?