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Apple Introduces AirTag

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Re: Apple Introduces AirTag

#641

Post by gnicholas »

katbyte wrote: post #512
rurp wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if a friend lends me some keys with one of these attached and I don't have the right kind of phone on me, the keys will start beeping incessantly? That seems pretty darn annoying.

i think only if they are marked lost?

No, it's an anti-stalking feature, so it's triggered when it's been away from the owner for some unspecified period of time, and only when the tag is moved. If someone is using AirTags to stalk someone, they would never mark as lost, which is why beeping isn't tied to this status.

Re: Apple Introduces AirTag

#642

Post by angry_octet »

dividuum wrote: post #399
zxcvgm wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too, found the anti-stalking features might hinder the use of AirTags for locating intentionally stolen items: (1) it has a removable battery, and also (2) "someone can tap [the tag] with their iPhone or NFC-capable device and instructions will guide them to disable the unknown AirTag". The anti-stalking feature also seems to contradict its privacy features: > Bluetooth signal identifiers transmitted by AirTag rota…

Here’s a detailed protocol reverse engineering paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.02282.pdf My guess would be that you, as the tag owner, locally store the master beacon key and can use it to derive key required to decrypt received beacon payloads for your own tags. You can then filter out your own and approximate how many others (which you cannot link over time) you permanently see. If it is more than one most of the…

But you don't permanently see them, because the ID rolls over quite often to prevent tracking the beacon.

Conceivably the beacons co-operate in preventing tracking by conversing with iPhones nearby to store a random code supplied by the phone for a period of time, and allowing any iDevice to ask for the list. If your iDevice sees the same random code it transmitted to a stranger beacon appear in multiple time periods it knows it is colocated.

I would guess that the colocation feature would allow you to track devices actively (tailing someone).

Spies will have to be alert the potential for both exposure and tracking. Hopefully Apple commissions Spy Vs Spy ad campaigns!

Re: Apple Introduces AirTag

#643

Post by angry_octet »

billyhoffman wrote: post #393
zxcvgm wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too, found the anti-stalking features might hinder the use of AirTags for locating intentionally stolen items: (1) it has a removable battery, and also (2) "someone can tap [the tag] with their iPhone or NFC-capable device and instructions will guide them to disable the unknown AirTag". The anti-stalking feature also seems to contradict its privacy features: > Bluetooth signal identifiers transmitted by AirTag rota…

A local device like an iPhone has to know what AirTags are yours, since they have to guide to back to the beacon. If your iPhone notices beacons that appear at multiple locations, that aren't yours, it can detect that.

It isn't yet clear how that detection occurs.

Re: Apple Introduces AirTag

#644

Post by bytesmith »

SilverRed wrote: post #518
rcpt wrote: post #475

Once I started using Tile it became impossible for me to remember where I put my keys. There just wasn't any pressure to stay organized since the beeping would always save me. But whenever the battery was out or the Bluetooth wasn't connecting oh boy. Same kind of thing happened with GPS. I used to pay more attention to maps and really learned streets but now I just expect the phone to solve everything for me. I'm lo…

This kind of thing would be incredible built in to expensive portable electronics. My bf recently lost his very expensive sony earbuds while on holiday and once its not in the hotel room or your bags, its basically gone. The most likely situation is it was at one of the public transport lost item collections but calling up everywhere we had been was too much work. Airtags would have found them most likely.

I use a cheap rubber case for my AirPods that has a little loop for a keyring that I use to attach a Tile to [0]. It's a little bulky compared to the naked case but it has a few of advantages.

First, it allows you to say "find my AirPods" to your phone and the Siri shortcut will launch the tile app and ring your AirPods. Second, the silicon is really grippy so it's far less likely to fall out of your pockets, and third the keychain ring means I can store it on a keyhook by the door which is my system for not loosing my keys in the first place, and usually obviates the need for the Tile:)

I do agree that having the UWB transmitter built into the case would be better provided it doesn't require the case having charge to work, which isn't always going to be true.

[0] https://imgur.com/a/xTGpTOC

Re: Apple Introduces AirTag

#645

Post by quangv »

natch wrote: post #610
spoonjim wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tile has products with replaceable and with non replaceable batteries.

Yes now they do. For years they had only non-user-replaceable ones but they were happy to charge a large fee for a swap.

Tile sends me free replaceable batteries.

Hopefully AirTag opens up their API so Tile can integrate. I’m just assuming AirTag would be slightly more integrated than Tile.

Re: Apple Introduces AirTag

#646

Post by gnicholas »

billyhoffman wrote: post #557
SilverRed wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of thing would be incredible built in to expensive portable electronics. My bf recently lost his very expensive sony earbuds while on holiday and once its not in the hotel room or your bags, its basically gone. The most likely situation is it was at one of the public transport lost item collections but calling up everywhere we had been was too much work. Airtags would have found them most likely.

I can’t wait for an AirTag-enabled AirPods case! I misplace that often.

The AirPods case can already be tracked, but annoyingly you can't make it make a sound. If you leave a single AirPod out, you can make it make a sound, but for me this is useless because I always misplace the case (with AirPods inside). I don't see why it's not possible to have the AirPods make noise from within the case. I understand the sound would be muffled by the case itself, but that's still better than nothing!

Re: Apple Introduces AirTag

#647

Post by function_seven »

angry_octet wrote: post #642
dividuum wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s a detailed protocol reverse engineering paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.02282.pdf My guess would be that you, as the tag owner, locally store the master beacon key and can use it to derive key required to decrypt received beacon payloads for your own tags. You can then filter out your own and approximate how many others (which you cannot link over time) you permanently see. If it is more than one most of the…

But you don't permanently see them, because the ID rolls over quite often to prevent tracking the beacon. Conceivably the beacons co-operate in preventing tracking by conversing with iPhones nearby to store a random code supplied by the phone for a period of time, and allowing any iDevice to ask for the list. If your iDevice sees the same random code it transmitted to a stranger beacon appear in multiple time periods…

My guess was simpler. If the phone sees a random tag for 30 minutes, then coincidentally that tag disappears but a new one shows up--for 30 minutes--and this keeps happening, then it's probably the same tag that's following you around. Especially if it's always about X meters away, or whatever.

Random tags passing by wouldn't maintain the same distance or RSSI, and they wouldn't be spaced perfectly apart in time either.

Of course I'm making assumptions here about the key rotation frequency, or even if it's a regular intervals. I guess if you're spending a lot of time in crowds, the rotating beacon that's with you would be hard to pick out of the myriad other beacons coming within range all the time. ("Was that a key rotation, or another person?")

Re: Apple Introduces AirTag

#648

Post by Twisell »

joshe wrote: post #255
crazygringo wrote: post #71

I thought one of the big use cases for this was to track stolen items, like a backpack or maybe even a bicycle. But the "anti-stalking" feature will notify someone if an AirTag they don't own appears to be traveling with them. Does this render it useless for anti-theft, then? Since it will just notify a thief that the bike they just stole is being tracked, and they can look for the AirTag and throw it in the nearest…

It would make sense to do the anti stalking notification after say 4 days. This would make stalking labor intensive since the stalker has to swap tags frequently. So if you leave one in someone's car or drop it in a bag, you'd have to steal it back and replace it. Also if the stalker is unable to track it down, the victim gets notified automatically which makes stalking with these much more dangerous for the stalker.…

Confirmed by John Gruber

> I talked to folks from Apple today about some of this. The timeout period for when an AirTag will play a sound if separated from its owner is currently three days — but that’s not baked into the AirTags themselves. It’s a server-side setting in the Find My network, so Apple can adjust it if real-world use suggests that three days is too long or too short.

> The “NFC-capable device” thing means Android phones.

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/04/20/moren-fine-prin...

Re: Apple Introduces AirTag

#649

Post by l8rlump »

05 wrote: post #237
Eric_WVGG wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess bicycles thieves are either savvier or have an easier job. Their modus operandi is to throw a bicycle into a truck or van, move them in lots of fifty across state lines, and tear them down to components. Any trackers will be quickly rendered useless once they're in the van, and immediately found and discarded. I'm definitely planning on getting Airtags for my bikes, but mostly for amusement and occasionally f…

> Any trackers will be quickly rendered useless once they're in the van You can build a custom LoRa based tracker with 100+km range (line of sight), a van won't disable that. You'll have to use signal triangulation, though, because GPS reception in a van won't be great.

Any recommended further reading on the LoRa solution?

Re: Apple Introduces AirTag

#650

Post by Larrikin »

llbeansandrice wrote: post #141
Nextgrid wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, replaceable batteries in laptops and phones also used to be the status quo and Apple successfully changed that. Just because it’s the status quo wouldn’t prevent Apple from “thinking different”.

> Apple successfully changed that I feel like this gives far too much credit to Apple. Any one company can "think differently" but Apple shouldn't get the blame for all of the other companies following suit. Remember the ads Samsung ran before axing the headphone jack a year later?

Thankfully saner heads have prevailed at companies like Sony.

They solved the waterproof phone with a headphone jack many years ago, went with with the craziness of removing it for no reason reason like Samsung and apple, and have since put it back in all of their phones as there hasn't been any noticable improvement in phones that have removed it, but now you have to make sure your headphones are charged.

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