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Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

reuters.com

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Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#641

Post by rodgerd »

cycomanic wrote: post #370
dubcanada wrote: post #184

I can hardly wait to use Amazon App Store to install Amazon and then open up the Epic Game Store to install random game and then open up EA Game Store to install random game and then open up Facebook App Store to install Facebook and then open up the Apple App Store to install the Blizzard App Store to install Hearthstone and then go back to the Apple App Store and update the Blizzard App Store so I can get the lates…

I wonder what we used to do before we had appstores? That must have been a horrible time. And we didn't have amazon either how did we even shop? Sorry for the sarcasm, but why do we even need appstores, apart from it being a website to download stuff?

We had people install a thing from whichever site they found, often with a toxic payload because third-party sites gamed results to end up above a company, or via sites that started trusted but were taken over by scamware, and then never updated anything, falling prey to whatever virii were doing the rounds.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#642

Post by zepto »

enragedcacti wrote: post #501
zepto wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is literally nothing TenCent could do to stop him outside of a lawsuit Obviously false. TenCent controls Epic’s access to the Chinese market, which is much larger than the iOS market has ever been for Epic.

I'm not saying they have no influence, I just have a problem with you _insinuating_ falsehoods with a statement like "Look into who owns Epic" as if you've just dropped the truth bomb exposing evil China as the mastermind behind two corporations fighting for who gets to make more money.

I’m not insinuating a falsehood.

TenCent owns 40% of Epic’s stock, has a seat in the board, and controls access to much more of epic’s revenue than Apple does.

TenCent can absolutely dictate a policy in relation to Apple to Epic if they so choose.

China absolutely has interests in seeing a less powerful Apple, for numerous reasons.

Does this mean the Chinese government is driving this policy? Of course we don’t know.

But, we do know that they were ok with their share of the iOS revenue being lost.

It’s also completely unreasonable to discount to 0 the idea that this is at least in part driven by Chinese government priorities.

It’s not reasonable to say that the only incentives involved here are money.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#643

Post by Daho0n »

FlownScepter wrote: post #198
kevingadd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the past US regulators have not agreed with your reasoning here. They broke up the original big telephone companies, for example.

A quick Google says iOS' market share is 14%. I don't understand this position at all. Google is by far and away the market leader. Their ecosystem is free and you can do just about anything in it. Their Play store's standards are utterly bare bones. The devices are cheaper. If what you want is an open source (ish) platform that you can hack on, modify, install software yourself, whatever, all of that is available to…

Why do you repeat market share? It is completely irrelevant and unless you understand this it is no wonder you are confused. Abuse of market position has nothing to do with monopoly. You can abuse your position without having a monopoly. Even if Apple had 1% they could still abuse their position. You can disagree that it is a problem but talking about market share is missing the point.

>Just let us do our own thing over here for fuck's sake.

No one is forcing you to do anything. There can be 10 app stores and you could still use one the one. Just like many PC gamers have done for decades. I own hundreds of games and I only use GOG and Steam. Pretending you are forced to do anything is disingenuous. People have more right to use their bought hardware than you and Apple have to deny it. It's not a matter of if but when Apple will be forced to allow people to own their owned hardware.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#644

Post by danielheath »

ballenf wrote: post #616
015a wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to Developers not having the choice to distribute their own app stores? There is no solution to this problem that benefits everyone perfectly. There are only solutions which are better than the solution we have today. Actually, there is one near-perfect solution; Apple reduces their cut to ~5% and stops enforcing their insane rules. But that's not happening. You, and many others in this thread, are blaming…

As a developer I just don’t like the precedent that if I’m too successful at creating a great product that I therefore lose control over the very qualities of my product that made it successful.

In return for the benefits of living in a modern society, you pay many prices; one of them is a cap on how much influence you are permitted to hold over others.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#645

Post by cwhiz »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #71
dleslie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand, Apple is acting as a store curator and demanding that its customers be made aware of tracking software. On the other hand, Apple is acting as a platform owner and demanding that they continue to act as the sole store curator on their platform. I do not see the hypocrisy.

How you can argue for less software freedoms, while paying a 30% tax for any app you distribute, is honestly mind boggling to me. >On the one hand, Apple is acting as a store curator and demanding that its customers be made aware of tracking software. This sounds like marketing. Apple is limiting what apps their customers have access to. I wonder if you would make the same argument if Apple starts blocking websites?

>How you can argue for less software freedoms, while paying a 30% tax for any app you distribute, is honestly mind boggling to me.

Why do you care what my preferences are? If you don't care for the iOS model, you should go buy an Android. Apple doesn't have a monopoly.

I prefer the Apple model because I want these restrictions. I want apps to be blocked from cross-app tracking. I want apps to have to explicitly spell out the type of data they collect from me, and how they use it. I don't care that I can't side load apps.

If you want a spyware phone, go get an Android.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#646

Post by slantyyz »

nodamage wrote: post #623
AttakBanana wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, the harm is 30% more expensive apps. If devs can't avoid the cut, its only going to get passed down to the user.

Except in the real world when we see games offered in multiple places (e.g. Steam and the Epic Game Store) they are usually the same price. In other words, any savings from the developer cut is simply kept by the developer, not passed onto the consumer.

> Except in the real world when we see games offered in multiple places (e.g. Steam and the Epic Game Store) they are usually the same price.

Is that really true? Legitimate Steam keys are sold by stores other than Valve's Steam store, such as Humble Bundle, Green Man Gaming and Fanatical.

I shop at multiple stores that sell Steam keys, and I would say that I only buy less than 1/3rd of my games from Steam directly, due to heavy discounts via bundling and other sales at various online game stores. I find that the alternate "Steam" stores have sales more often than the official Steam store does.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#647

Post by Daho0n »

rgbrenner wrote: post #366
arendtio wrote: post #291

A bit OT, but I still fail to grasp why Apple is allowed to restrict all browsers on iOS to the Safari rendering engine. Microsoft had to pay big because they didn't asked their users properly for alternative browsers, yet Apple doesn't even give other browsers a fair chance to compete on iOS. Consumers suffer because Apple controls about 50% of the mobile market and if Apple decides a certain feature will not be ava…

50% in the US market (27% globally) is very far from the 98% global marketshare that Windows had in 2000. MacOS had the other 2% (thanks to being propped up by MS 2 years earlier). That was the entire competitive landscape. Linux existed, but if you used it back then (I did), it was difficult to get a desktop going, and virtually no one used it on the desktop. And while the DOJ might only care about the US market...…

No matter how many times it gets repeated it doesn't make it true: Market share is irrelevant. You can abuse your market position at both 15 and 50% market share. A few tiny companies working together to fix prices is still illegal and punished no matter if they together are only a tiny fraction of the market. Apple is abusing it's position, no doubt about it. If you doubt install another app store or avoid the 30% tax.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#648

Post by lux »

martimarkov wrote: post #346
lux wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of making the split at the app store level, enabling other payment processors within the iOS app store would solve most of these issues without creating a UX nightmare. That said, I wouldn't mind competition at the app store level too.

As iOS user I completely disagree. I love the Apple platform for the simplicity. Every time there is a payment I choose Apple Pay as it's more secure than giving my card away. It uses biometrics, not some static digits stuck with card if you lose it. It's also more or less valid for Google Pay as well. Having the option to use PayPal, Stripe, some other payment processor increases the stress on the UX and also the at…

There's nothing preventing Apple Pay-level security features from being integrated with 3rd party vendors like Stripe, except Apple's desire to keep 30%. It's highway robbery compared to every other payment processor's fees and has nothing to do with security, cost of operation, or doing right by users. Apple has conned users into believing that rhetoric, but it's harming developers, which are also a type of user.

No platform should ever be allowed to be the sole gatekeeper for apps on your device; that it's done for security is dishonest. And it's doubly egregious that they've tied payment processing restrictions onto it too.

I don't make mobile apps so I have no skin directly in this game, but as a user who believes my devices are my own, and as a developer too, I have to stand with my fellow developers in demanding app stores do right by the people producing apps for them.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#649

Post by sdfhbdf »

kevingadd wrote: post #149
pier25 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think 30% is excessive but as a developer my biggest gripe with the AppStore is definitely the tight grip Apple has over what's published. You might work for years on an app and all that effort can vanish into thin air if Apple decides they don't want it.

Retroactively! It'd be one thing if it was up-front rejections, but the internet is full of horror stories from developers who suddenly found that Apple had decided their product was no longer okay and that their customers didn't matter, blocking future updates. Not even necessarily taking it off the store, just ensuring it can never get bug fixes.

> internet is full of horror stories

Well you have the extremism bias. Only people that are really mad at apple will voice their opinion. You probably won't hear from the thousands or more of developers who have no problem with publishing on Apple platforms. Since it's nothing out of the ordinary they don't go out of the way to comment how awesome it is to publish on there.

And also what I've seen with these stories that there is always a human from Apple App Store review involved, the conlusion often are a phone call with an apple rep or something like that. That's one of the things that's often not true in cases like Google - no humans to reach.

So true sometimes Apple pulls an app, unrightfully, like Amphetamine or etc. but they usually reach out back and you can talk to them.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#650

Post by Chris2048 »

insert_coin wrote: post #447
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it’s about reasoning from first principles and going where ever that leads you, regardless of how much you dislike the outcome" This sounds an awfull lot like the though process of religious zealots and extremists. Ignore the real world, consequences be damned, ideology comes first. There is no way we could make an error of judgement. Thats how you get a famine and 50 million dead in China. "Apple has the right to c…

The right to one's own work, to one's own mind outcome is arguably the only real right we can even pretend to have. What there is none is the "right" for governments to claim ownership to other's work and dictate you must do what your own free will tells you is not on your best interest, that is why they use force.

What nonsense. Apple is a business, it has no right to participate in the economy - it has to follow the rules.
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