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WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

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Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#641

Post by wozer »

unlivingthing wrote: post #549
pojzon wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their infra is generating those encryption certificates, so WhatsApp can very well decode the message and store it for further processing. They will most likely share metadata about you with facebook to sell that data to push more ads into your face. They may very well sell also data to insurance companies making it harder for you to get insurance. Options are limited only by who would like to pay for info about you.…

So it won't impact people who don't have an FB account?

I think everybody has a (shadow) FB account. FB collects your data and connects it to other data even if you never registered.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#642

Post by johnchristopher »

lrvick wrote: post #607
johnchristopher wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. I'll bite. Who's paying for my johnchristopher@whatever.tld and for the data (avatar pictures, transfered files, chat logs) associated with it ? Will the Matrix foundation let me use their services forever and f…

You can think of it like email. Maybe you started on AOL and later realized AOL is terrible. You could export your address book and move to a client/server you trust more and notify all your contacts from the new location. This is the same story on Matrix and what I mean when I say it is a freedom respecting decentralized service. You are also free to run your own DNS to a dedicated EMS instance then later point to y…

> Maybe you started on AOL and later realized AOL is terrible. You could export your address book and move to a client/server you trust more and notify all your contacts from the new location.

The whole point is in avoiding starting with an AOL like service. So far only big matrix provider are reliable and performant enough to be usable. This is @gmail.com all over again but with @matrix.org tld.

Except you won't be able to carry your messages from a tld to another when you decide to rely on another domain name (your own or someone else's).

How long before Matrix foundation send messages telling users they are going to delete their rooms and messages if they don't log in once a year ? Or that they are now restricted your account to matrix.org rooms to "save operating costs" ?

The whole tech stack is free but operating costs are not.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#643

Post by bilekas »

Valodim wrote: post #536
bilekas wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO telegram has the best feature and usability parity as Whatsapp.. As for converting people who are not that interested, I can tell you from experience talking about privacy generally doesn't sell it.

It bears repeating: Telegram is not e2e encrypted. Messages you write on telegram will be stored on some Russian servers forever.

What are you talking about ? Telegram encryption is based on 2048-bit RSA encryption, 256-bit symmetric AES encryption, and Diffie–Hellman secure key exchange

For end2end you can just use the secret chat function.. https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end

Feel free to check their source out - https://telegram.org/apps#source-code

So I'm not sure what 'bears repeating'.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#644

Post by Aachen »

lrvick wrote: post #629
tao_oat wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wire is the better choice if you can sacrifice a tiny bit of usability for better privacy. Do you mean better privacy than Signal? I was under the impression that Signal was significantly ahead of Wire in this regard with features like private groups and private contact discovery.

Private contact discovery and other metadata protection claims are largely security theatre. SGX is entirely broken and those with physical (and sometimes even remote) access can dump keys at any time. They pinky swear they always patch and never dump keys when they have the chance though.

It's a security theater not only because someone broke it, but also because you can always just look at which IPs talk to which IPs. Even Tor has issues with preventing traffic analysis, except with Signal you can observe (or trust) a single party (instead of the guard and exit nodes) to get the data.

It's more of a trust thing than something you can technically solve while still having features like real-time calling. Hence Facebook being objectionable despite having encryption.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#646

Post by chalst »

lrvick wrote: post #588
chalst wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like Signal's stance on forks (which is that they are allowed but may not use the official Signal network) but it hardly has identical drawbacks. Signal is open source, can be downloaded as an official APK and can be run on LineageOS without Google Play (notifications do require some emulation of Play Services calls, but that can be provided using MicroG).

Moxie highly discourages using the APK because it means turning on untrusted sources which is highly unsafe and bypasses signature verification. It is one BGP attack or compromised CDN admin way from compromising the masses. This is one of the few points I agree with moxie on. The only safe way to install software on an Android device requires you bootstrap trust via a system supplied package manager that enforces si…

Directly installing APKs by hand is something that is only for people who know what they are doing. However, providing the APK for download is something that is helpful for 3rd party package managers, which can verify the hash.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#647

Post by Aachen »

detaro wrote: post #560
dagurp wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is Telegram not on your list?

it is?

I should maybe have put it in the list on top. I initially listed only the encrypted messengers, but later decided to add a paragraph about Telegram anyway.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#648

Post by kashyapc »

Not unexpected at all. After all, it is gratis; WhatsApp will jolly well do as they please—until regulators unleash the whirlwind.

On a related note, as a regular Signal user (and I've had a modicum of success converting some friends to it), I worry how they intend to stay afloat with "grants and donations" for the next 95 years.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#649

Post by dan-robertson »

hkt wrote: post #600
submeta wrote: post #467

I am in the EU, and this is what I have been presented with: „ By tapping Agree, you accept the new terms, which take effect on February 8, 2021. After this date, you’ll need to accept the new terms to continue using WhatsApp. You can also visit the Help Center if you would prefer to delete your account and would like more information. To learn more about how WhatsApp processes your data, read our updated privacy pol…

May I recommend Delta Chat? It's an email client (with clever, seamless encryption based on gpg) with a WhatsApp style interface. There's a desktop client too. I've only ever managed to get one person to use it, but goodness it'd be nice to get rid of WhatsApp. Edit: URL https://delta.chat/

Note that gpg provides worse security from an encryption standpoint than signal/WhatsApp

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#650

Post by Aachen »

dagurp wrote: post #557
Aachen wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix is riddled with bugs. While I agree with you that signal isn't all that great (they do some really good stuff and then make some really weird trade-offs), I've recently compared Signal, Wire, Threema, Jami, Briar, Element/Matrix, and Keybase. The most mature app is Signal. It has the best usability to privacy trade-off. Threema is the better choice if you don't mind not having a usable desktop client. For me t…

Why is Telegram not on your list?

They lie about encryption. They call themselves an encrypted messenger when they're not, at least not in the way that people expect nowadays. I volunteered for their support team a few years ago but was rejected because the first test question was about their encryption and I refused to lie (I said regular chats are encrypted but only to the server, i.e. that Telegram can read your messages which was true then and is still true today, and that you need to use secret chats for encryption.)

I ended up adding a paragraph about it anyhow but that's why, when starting to write the post, I didn't add Telegram to the list. There is also rocket.chat further down that I didn't mention on top, fwiw.

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