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AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

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Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#641
post #616

This is a really hard problem space to solve. I'm very sorry to see this drama happening and I have sympathy for both sides. I routinely run into the issue that if I try to understand why people did something that went badly/harmed people without looking to blame them per se, I get accused of being "an apologist." But in practice trying to understand why things happen is essential to finding a real solution. Merely a…

> I recently had an exchange with someone that reminded me how important trust and mutual respect is and how the lack of such tends to cause problems to escalate. What feels like a breakdown of trust in society has been on my mind a lot recently. Without trust, it seems communication and collaboration becomes impossible. How can society solve any of its problems when people can't discuss anything about those problems…

I don't know the answers to that.

I've been on Hacker News over 11 years. I would like to think I've been building bridges, but it seems like nothing I do is ever enough to reassure people I'm not some SJW Feminazi here to just piss on the guys and let them know what misogynistic assholes they are and it gets hard to keep trying when most of the community has watched me starve for years and openly told me "Not my problem. Get a real job." (while my writing hits the front page, but people don't want to support it financially, knowing I'm handicapped, etc).

I don't have a whole lot more to give and I've spent much of this year wondering if it's time to throw in the towel and leave HN. It feels downright abusive at times to stay in a community where I feel I have done so much to reduce sexism and open doors for other women and improve participation of women here and it's the funnel for a multi-billion dollar business, yet I remain dirt poor.

It's a rather jagged, bitter pill to swallow and I think I deserve a helluva lot better.

But then I don't know where I would go if I left. HN is the least worst thing. Other places are worse.

Metafilter was a toxic cesspit that banned me for supposedly "self promoting." They like to wrench their shoulder out of place patting themselves on the back for how what awesome, wonderful people they are and the mods were actively encouraging the membership to bully me at a time when I was homeless. One member of Metafilter that had a hobby of harassing me while I was homeless was a female ER doctor. Another was a very privileged American pursuing their PhD while living in Europe.

When you left your comment, I was staring blankly at some other open tab wondering how in the heck to talk about rape prevention and best practices for dismantling rape culture without using the word "rape" at all, in part because it's a triggering word for people who have been assaulted and in part because I get accused of being full of bull for thinking I know anything about such topics.

Some problems are just hard to solve. I do what little I can, which doesn't seem to amount to a handful of sand in the grand scheme of things.

I guess the upside is I'm mostly well at this point, in spite of the entire world telling me I'm a deluded fruitcake so it's not like I'm ever going to get taken seriously or given any respect.

And this is probably all the wrong things to say, as usual. I wish I had an answer for you. There doesn't appear to be one, as best I can tell.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You are probably going to be a very successful computer person. But you're going to go through life thinking that girls don't like you because you're a nerd. And I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, that that won't be true. It'll be because you're an asshole." ~ The Social Network A good number of social activists are rude and abrasive and then blame how people react as racism/sexism. No one wants to be…

That's a little ungenerous. Social activists may go over the line and be rude or abrasive, but unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist. Activism fundamentally requires telling people that their actions should be modified, that their beliefs may be flawed, that their systems have problems. It's really hard to do that and be a likeable person. Of course social activists may at times cross the line…

> it's impossible to be a polite social activist.

Fred Rogers and Carl Sagan are standing at the front of a very long line of people who are waiting to gently disagree with you.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#643

This person forced Yann LeCun (one of the top 3 AI/ML researchers today, head of Facebook AI, and an ML researcher since the 80s) to give up on Twitter after she took exception to this tweet of his: https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1274782757907030016 She lives her life attacking people who she disagrees with, and brings in race/gender into any conflict where she's involved. I am surprised Google had hired her, beca…

This is the thread (it was a retweet with comment, naturally). https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1275162528511860737 Whatever your position, Yann engages on substance, and Timnit is obnoxious: https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1275191341455048704?s... https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1275191515380215808?s... Basically the worst of online discourse, but in this case one-sided. Yann is discussing in good fai…

> Whatever your position, Yann engages on substance, and Timnit is obnoxious:

For what it's worth, I and many others disagree with this characterization. I find Yann comes across as incredibly condescending and holier than thou in their interactions. Nor does Yann engage on substance. He refuses to take the time engage with, or even acknowledge that he has read, the relevant academic literature (which Timnit repeatedly cites).

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#644

This person forced Yann LeCun (one of the top 3 AI/ML researchers today, head of Facebook AI, and an ML researcher since the 80s) to give up on Twitter after she took exception to this tweet of his: https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1274782757907030016 She lives her life attacking people who she disagrees with, and brings in race/gender into any conflict where she's involved. I am surprised Google had hired her, beca…

Are you saying that someone that Google hired as an AI ethics researcher should not be allowed to disagree with an AI practitioner on matters of AI ethics, and should be canceled for expressing an opinion?

What happened to diversity of thought, academic freedom, free speech as a civic virtue and not simply a restriction on government action, and all those other things this community normally stands for? Just yesterday we saw the NLRB rule that Google had illegally fired workers, and we were talking about how the big tech companies use their power to suppress internal dissent and it's bad. How did we forget that so quickly?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#645

This person forced Yann LeCun (one of the top 3 AI/ML researchers today, head of Facebook AI, and an ML researcher since the 80s) to give up on Twitter after she took exception to this tweet of his: https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1274782757907030016 She lives her life attacking people who she disagrees with, and brings in race/gender into any conflict where she's involved. I am surprised Google had hired her, beca…

In general, theatening to resign is never a good strategy and will never be in your favor unless you are a highly valued executive.

If you're anyone else in the company and think a problem could possibly work out, try to amicably work it out. If you believe it to be impossible to work out, it is much better to just resign than to threaten to resign, which will almost always result in firing.

If you resign, you have the upper hand, can still get 2 more weeks of pay, possibly a couple of good recommendations for your next job, and then go write your blog posts after that.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#646
post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not know the details of this case and I can't speak to the subject's character. However I can't help but note that people who study the effects of race and gender tend to bring race/gender into anything and everything, because well, that's their job. If your response is that race and gender should be brought into only the areas where race and gender are relevant, I'd respond that the prevailing opinion among gen…

I've thought about that filter through which we view the world a lot recently, and I think you may have identified part of where the conflict comes from. People viewing the world through fundamentally different filters. The problem is that if you focus on race, gender and/or sexual orientation as an important factor underlying interactions, if you're not careful you can soon come to see race and gender as the primary…

“It is important to draw wisdom from many different places. If we take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale.”

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#647
post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a little ungenerous. Social activists may go over the line and be rude or abrasive, but unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist. Activism fundamentally requires telling people that their actions should be modified, that their beliefs may be flawed, that their systems have problems. It's really hard to do that and be a likeable person. Of course social activists may at times cross the line…

May I direct you to watch Daryl Davis's ted talk or really anything he speaks about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORp3q1Oaezw For context he is a black man that has gotten over a hundred leaders of the KKK, including former convicts to leave the Klan. Not by arguing with them, not be reasoning, not by showing them the effects of their behaviour, but instead by sitting down, talking with them and becoming their fri…

[deleted]

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#648
post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Dean's email: "A cross functional team then reviewed the paper as part of our regular process and the authors were informed that it didn’t meet our bar for publication and were given feedback about why. It ignored too much relevant research — for example, it talked about the environmental impact of large models, but disregarded subsequent research showing much greater efficiencies. Similarly, it raised concerns…

Would you share the identities of the reviewers, if the author has a history of attacking anyone who disagrees with them??

Sorry, I was referring to the assertion that "they wouldn't share the feedback on her paper".

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You are probably going to be a very successful computer person. But you're going to go through life thinking that girls don't like you because you're a nerd. And I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, that that won't be true. It'll be because you're an asshole." ~ The Social Network A good number of social activists are rude and abrasive and then blame how people react as racism/sexism. No one wants to be…

Experiencing marginalisation is frustrating, and frustrated people sometimes have outbursts. I don't think we can infer much from a few highly publicised events.

Even if you are marginalized, threatening to resign with ultimatums will never work in your favor unless you have an entire union behind you.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#650
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Y'all are alleging that it was phrased as an ultimatum. I'm not so sure that's the case. Proposing an option of resigning is not the same thing as "I will definitely resign".

> I'm not so sure that's the case. The person who benefits from your doubt, _and_ could resolve your doubt, chooses not to.

If she were making a legal case, then I gather it could harm her case to release this information to the public.

So, she might be choosing not to for this reason.

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