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‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#641

Post by sumedh »

throwawayriver wrote: post #634
sumedh wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not the companies place to babysit and play judge and jury. yes it, why do you support people who abuse, why should they still be kept in the company if the evidence is credible? So does it mean now you understood why some people dont want file a police complaint?

>yes it, why do you support people who abuse I don't, and neither should the company, which is why they should call the police. >why should they still be kept in the company if the evidence is credible? Company is free to fire criminals if they want, no issues there. Many don't hire criminals to begin with, since your criminal history is public. >So does it mean now you understood why some people dont want file a pol…

> Company is free to fire criminals if they want

They are not yet criminals though.

> If you're the victim of a crime, report the crime to the police.

and you still dont get it.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#642

Post by dragonwriter »

throwawayriver wrote: post #485
sumedh wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Babysitting employees is not really a function of the employers. If an employee was sexually harassing female employees, should the company do something or should it not babysit employees?

The company should not babysit the employees, and should call the police. Glad you agree.

> The company should not babysit the employees, and should call the police.

Sexual harassment is not a crime, it's a workplace tort (and always a tort by the employer, regardless of who the active harasser is.) It's true that some acts which would also potentially make the employer liable for sexual harassment are also crimes, but it's also worth noting that, even where an act creating potential harassment liability is also a crime, that (1) the burden of proof in a criminal case is higher than for a civil tort, so there is no guarantee, even with the same evidence and the same jury that a criminal conviction would be rendered when there would be harassment liability, (2) the police and public prosecutor have no obligation to take action even if there is a crime, whereas the company does have an enforceable legal obligation to take effective action to prevent harassment, (3) even if the police take action and the prosecutor files charge, and a conviction eventually results, criminal process takes time during which the accused may be free, and, in the absence of effective action by the employer, continue harassing and increasing the employers harassment liability.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#643

Post by oh_sigh »

slg wrote: post #388
tomp wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Each individual's story is corroborated by someone else having a very similar story. Our culture is full of anecdotes and stories that serve as a warning why this is a very bad idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

Well I guess some witnesses lied over three centuries ago so we can't trust any group of people anymore for the rest of history. It is a bummer how that worked out.

Well I guess Bill Cosby raped a bunch of people so we need to believe every claim for the rest of history. It is a bummer how that worked out.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#644

Post by wpietri »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #639
wpietri wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You claim that there's "absolutely no evidence" that racism is endemic, which is an absurd claim to make. There's enormous amounts of it. Hundreds of studies. Hundreds of books. And the daily lived experience of million of people, who you need only listen to on the Internet. But if you want a very simple, obvious one, take NBER paper 9873: https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 One could plausibly debate the level of it.…

Hiring preferences based on the cultural or racial association of names is not an indication of "systemic racism against black Americans" or endemic racism. Systemic or endemic implies the racism is part of the systemic structure, i.e. the laws of the country, or its social contract. This study would at most imply high incidence of unconscious racial biases among the population. It could also be explained by employer…

You're conflating endemic and systemic. I clearly said one, not the other. Although you're wrong on both.

That also isn't the strongest evidence. It's just one of the easiest to understand. But given that you're going to strain at gnats and swallow camels even with the pretty basic ones, I'll leave finding the rest as an exercise to the reader.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#645

Post by arolihas »

roenxi wrote: post #629
arolihas wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it not racist to showcase your black employees for appearances and then turn around and condescend them?

You've squeezed a bit into the premise of that question. If, why and how persistently someone was ignored are very relevant questions that we have no facts on. And what the subject of the meeting was. We know that Alysa Butler felt unappreciated. I'm hesitant to believe the NYT is even representing her opinions fairly. If you read what they've written about carefully, the article doesn't have her accusing Coinbase of…

And you’re completely ignoring the fact that they are using these employees who they hired for an actual job as props for diversity brochures. Is that really just a “diversity problem”? To use your employees as token figures? Not every racist act has to be consciously malicious. It at the very least implies it, diversity problem honestly just sounds like a euphemism.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#646

Post by jahaja »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #639
wpietri wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You claim that there's "absolutely no evidence" that racism is endemic, which is an absurd claim to make. There's enormous amounts of it. Hundreds of studies. Hundreds of books. And the daily lived experience of million of people, who you need only listen to on the Internet. But if you want a very simple, obvious one, take NBER paper 9873: https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 One could plausibly debate the level of it.…

Hiring preferences based on the cultural or racial association of names is not an indication of "systemic racism against black Americans" or endemic racism. Systemic or endemic implies the racism is part of the systemic structure, i.e. the laws of the country, or its social contract. This study would at most imply high incidence of unconscious racial biases among the population. It could also be explained by employer…

> It could also be explained by employer preference for people who are more integrated in the cultural mainstream, which people with "black" names, or Chinese names, are less likely to be.

What? That is just euphemistic racism.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#647

Post by jahaja »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #638
i-write-comment wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you agree or disagree with the statement that "systemic racism against Black Americans exists and is a major problem in American society"?

I absolutely would not agree. There is substantial systemic racism in favor of black Americans.

I'm pretty sure that you are just a troll, but how do you substantiate this outrageous claim?

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#648

Post by franga2000 »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #81
cbthrow91 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this hard to imagine without someone getting reprimanded. Not disbelieving the person's quote, but not accepting it as fact either. Seems like it would be easy to get corroborating witnesses for a situation that inappropriate. The only group I've seen it be permissible to make stereotyped observations about in the last decade in an SF tech office is european/indian/chinese workers. FWIW I don't think that's ok…

A lot of people traffic in blatant stereotypes in the guise of some kind of positive statement, which makes reprimands less likely. I once had a speaker tell us - in a diversity seminar! - about specific racial groups he thinks are too timid to speak up for themselves.

Being timid is strongly connected to your upbringing, your upbringing is strongly connected to culture and culture is strongly connected to race.

Sure, saying "X are too timid" is a stereotype, but pointing out at a diversity seminar that you should be extra observant around X because they tend to not speak up for themselves is just good advice. Many cultures value being quiet and doing your job a lot more than others, and those values get passed down by parents for at least a few generations after immigrating. If that group doesn't have a good support structure (no BLM equivalent), that only adds to the fear of speaking out.

If you're a manager that gets many complaints from group Y but very few from group X, knowing that might lead you to do some more investigating and discover group X is being treated even worse, they're just not reporting it. Using a heuristing to optimise your search given imperfect information, if you will.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#649

Post by LunaSea »

nerdponx wrote: post #597
wolco2 wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can this principle be universally applied?

I'm not sure. I think it probably applies in personal life. But is there an imperative to 1) bring it into the workplace, and 2) to fall in line with any specific group and their chosen preferred language/actions? I'm equivocal on both of these. In the case of (1), why should the act of fighting injustice pause by some notion of decorum at work? Where should our priorities and values lie? In the case of (2), many peo…

If (1) is true, shouldn't companies have the right to fire you due to political reasons / disagreement?

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#650

Post by LunaSea »

sumedh wrote: post #539
throwawayriver wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why do you I think I agree with you? "should the company do something or should it not babysit employees?" The company is doing something by not babysitting the employees. Not baby sitting the employees is the only correct option here. >So the company should just call the Police and wash their hands Yes they should call the police, and it's not "washing their hands". Sexual harassment is a criminal offence. Your emp…

> Not baby sitting the employees is the only correct option here. No its not. If you ever work in big companies you will know that. > Adults shouldn't have their employer telling them that sexual harassment is a no no. Yes they do, Assuming you are a male, you might be unknowingly harrasing female employees just by having a boys will be boys attitude. So an employer has to give you training and explain you why its wr…

So the company should fire someone that hasn't been found guilty, simply based on one person's complaint?

Where did "innocent until proven guilty" go?

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