Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#641

Post by Viliam1234 » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:09 PM UTC

jhrmnn wrote: post #361

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from slovenia, a small, former yugoslav country. We don't have special schools for math here, and elementary schools (7-15yo in my time) were the same for all, and you went to the closest school to your home... but our highschool ("gymnasiums" - 15-19) used the grades from elementary school + standardized testing scores to rank students, and somehow best students went to certain schools, 'the middle' got accepted…

This is one school of education. The other is the Finnish model, with no separation. I am yet to see some comprehensive multinational study that would suggest which is better. (Better for the students, or society as a whole?) It’s probably impossible to do objectively. I also feel there is probably quite a difference between these two systems in the effects on the, say, top 0.2%, 2%, and 20% of the students.

Seems to me that the Finnish model is better for an average student (guessing by their PISA test results) and worse for a talented student (guessing by their math olympiad results).

Anecdotally, a Finnish friend told me that if you excel at one subject, you are encouraged by teachers to stop doing it, and instead spend more time learning the other subjects.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#642

Post by yters » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:13 PM UTC

claudiawerner wrote: post #596

yters wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the cite: http://thenewobjectivity.com/pdf/marx.pdf "once adopted into the production process of capital, the means of labour passes through different metamorphoses, whose culmination is the machine, or rather, an automatic system of machinery (system of machinery: the automatic one is merely its most complete, most adequate form, and alone transforms machinery into a system), set in motion by an automaton, a…

I don't think it makes much sense to say this is a state of affairs Marx would want to see in a communist society; to be honest, I have no idea where you get the idea that Marx envisioned a totalizing AI controlling society from. The Fragment on Machines is highly debated and analyzed in Marxology, but it doesn't imply what you think it implies. Marx's description of communist society is actually quite the opposite (…

Wouldn't having an omnibenevolent AI providing for everyone's needs free everyone from having to be a laborer, so anyone can choose to be one thing one day and another thing another day? I see my passage and yours working together.

From what I understand, Marx didn't see communism as subverting capitalism, but as the end result of capitalism. He just wanted to hasten the process along towards an outcome which he saw as already predetermined by economic forces.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#643

Post by yters » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:15 PM UTC

jerzyt wrote: post #256

yters wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least the engineers were too useful to the state to get purged frequently.

Although there were exceptions. If you got hitched to a high-visibility program, failure was considered a sabotage.

So I guess the best position in a communist country is to be extremely useful and extremely obscure.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#644

Post by yters » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:16 PM UTC

TimTheTinker wrote: post #177

yters wrote: post #131

I think it comes down to communism. According to Marx's book "The Machine" the end game of communism is essentially an omnibenevolent AI. Marx thought eventually all forms of labor would be mechanised into a colossal machine that would run the world. Thus, the whole point of education is to train the geniuses in math, science, and technology in order to bring about this machine god. That's, in my opinion, why there i…

That’s fascinating... and somewhat terrifying. Because it seems clear to me that it won’t require communism or totalitarianism to achieve that kind of endgame (or at least, to get really close to it). Perhaps the communist/totalitarian/power-hungry nations of the world are sitting back and waiting for us in western nations to build such a system (think AWS, but 30 years from now). All they have to do is get complete…

Perhaps that's the end goal for all the hot tech buzzwords:

- cloud

- internet of things

- artificial intelligence

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#645

Post by champagneben » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:17 PM UTC

sergiotapia wrote: post #602

champagneben wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He wanted poorer, minority kids to have a chance at a good education and high standards as well? Wasn't very shocking, though the title was incendiary.

He tries to do that not by elevating people, but by dragging people down. I'm not OK with this.

I did not hear that in the video - could you pinpoint the timestamp? I would also not be OK with that.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#646

Post by lsh123 » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:20 PM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #268

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

There is a big difference between high schools in different ares in both Russia and US. I don't think you will argue that a person from a country school in the middle of nowhere in Russia with one teacher for all subjects will be able to do better in a top-level school in NYC.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#647

Post by GuB-42 » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:39 PM UTC

lxnn wrote: post #486

GuB-42 wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What really surprised me was the core principle at British unversities - "don't assume prior knowledge of anything"... I think it is a good thing. There is a big difference between doing well on a test and understanding the subject. You may think you know basic algebra because you can find the correct value for x, but chances are that you don't really know what you are doing. So having a refresher course telling yo…

Also, the way mathematics is taught at high school might not prepare you well for the way you use it at university. Maths in high school focuses more on applying methods (taking a derivative etc.); maths at university (even on a CS course) is more about constructing mathematical models and arguments. It can almost feel like a completely different subject.

It is interesting that you say that because I had huge variations in my test results, dropping from top of my class to the bottom in an instant, then back to the average.

At one point I met a guy who was working on ways for computers to solve math problems. He told me that early college level problems are actually easier to solve than high school problems for his algorithms. The reason is that while college problems have more steps, and are therefore harder for students, you essentially just need to string theorems together. High school level problems are simpler (less steps) but require significantly more intuition.

And that's what I think happened with my grades: I was never good at math, but I had good intuition. And the switch from using intuition to using actual rigorous mathematical thinking killed me. It was like a completely different subject, and it took me years to catch up.

I wouldn't say if was it was different when it comes to applying methods vs constructing models.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#648

Post by Symbiote » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:57 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #573

Loulybob wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On your final point about the drinking age: The minimum purchasing/public drinking age is 18 (other than a single pint with a meal), but there's no practical restriction on parents letting their kids drink in private. My parents encouraged me once I was around 16 to join in with the adults whilst they had drinks. This led to me getting silly drunk a couple of times but with proper supervision. Same thing with going t…

My sister was at a private school in the UK and they were given drinks(a single glass of champagne) at certain events even before they turned 18, with permission from parents. Like you said, it's only illegal to buy alcohol under 18, but there's no problem with consumption itself.

I was given Buck's Fizz (Champagne and orange juice) when I was 5, at the birthday party of a super-posh boy who lived in the village. His grandfather didn't even ask my mum first. Upper class people apparently have different rules.

At Imperial, when the Google London office was new, the feedback from staff for why so few students hung around at their recruitment event was the lack of alcohol. Overturning this HQ-imposed very American policy apparently took significant effort.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#649

Post by tathougies » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

google234123 wrote: post #42

tathougies wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, Rudin, the most popular abstract algebra textbook in English, is quite dense.

"abstract algebra", are you sure you aren't talking about analysis? It's not usually used as an introduction anyway.

sorry yes... wrote that comment way late at night.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#650

Post by credit_guy » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 9:38 PM UTC

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

My feeling is that the students in Eastern Europe (where I'm from) and very likely the Soviet Union, are very bimodal. Some are brilliant, some barely make it. If, for whatever reasons, early in your education you find yourself in the upper hump of the distribution, then it's a virtuous cycle. If not, not.

In America, it feels to me ,there are plenty of programs to help the students who don't perform that well. Brilliant kids, outside of various gifted/talented programs, are left unchallenged. My son just qualified to an online math olympiad, and he told his teacher and peers about that (over a zoom meeting, obviously). The teacher was impressed, and commended him, but that's it. He will not give my son any more challenging problems, or give him any extra attention. If he does well in that olympiad, he'll congratulate my son once more, if not, he couldn't care less.

When I was a kid growing up, math/physics olympiads was what I was living for. Here most teachers are not even aware they exist.

Overall though, I'll go against the popular opinion, and state that I consider the school system in America (or at least in NYC) better than the one in Eastern Europe. Sure, some could point out at the ridiculous budget that schools have here ($25k per pupil in NYC [1]). But all in all, I feel my son's school experience is better than mine 35 years ago.

[1] https://nypost.com/2019/05/21/nyc-spends-double-the-national...