The dystopian world of software engineering interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#641

Post by eropple » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #551

monoideism wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I hear, but then I see comments from folks like User5283 above. I have the impression it may be changing into something much more similar to a typical corporation after years of avoiding that fate.

Beware though, that he or she used a throwaway. Comments can be made by anyone, also a marketing company contracted by oracle who still want talent and have to shame competitors with better image. (but the comment did seem legit and it is obvious for posting that anonymous)

HN doesn't remotely begin to matter enough for companies to waste money on propaganda efforts.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#642

Post by paganel » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

thewhitetulip wrote: post #384

neilk wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there’s any intention to it at all. Unless one takes extraordinary steps to examine what brings truly brings value, most people interview for clones of themselves. Or worse: their idealized self-image. Google started off with very mathy people, and highly competitive people, and interviewing this way has always worked for them, so why change? Some people have done internal studies showing how wildly cou…

> Unearned privilege? I agree that the interview process looks for self clones. I've been in interviews where interviewer was like "why you used Dictionary to do this? Nobody uses dict in prod code" But unearned privilege seems a little harsh doesn't it?

Now I’m curious why they didn’t use dicts, I love dicts. I’ve been writing Python for a living for almost 15 years now and dictionaries and (reasonable) list comprehensions still attract me like they did the first day I “met” them.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#643

Post by minimaxir » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

ansgri wrote: post #540

minimaxir wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has had bad data science interviews before getting my current data science job, the process is highly variable. I've had interviews where the interviewer is looking for a specific right answer, with the answer being a binary you-know-it-or-you-don't thing that can't be talked through or worked out in a dialogue with the interviewer. An example was a whiteboard problem requiring the BETWEEN syntax for S…

TIL even sqlite has window functions.

MySQL and sqlite only got window functions very recently, years after the aforementioned interview.

On a take-home test around that time, the question specifically said to use PostgreSQL just because the answer required a window function.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#644

Post by lr4444lr » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

codingslave wrote: post #9

Interviews are so bad because there are too many capable programmers. If there really was a market shortage, companies would not interview like this.

There are too many applicants. Not the same thing.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#645

Post by nitrogen » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #641

hutzlibu wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beware though, that he or she used a throwaway. Comments can be made by anyone, also a marketing company contracted by oracle who still want talent and have to shame competitors with better image. (but the comment did seem legit and it is obvious for posting that anonymous)

HN doesn't remotely begin to matter enough for companies to waste money on propaganda efforts .

That is probably not true, but it's also probably not worth worrying about unless you are an HN mod.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#646

Post by hogFeast » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

wojciii wrote: post #590

hogFeast wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just speculation but I think a big part of this is that it is often quite difficult to lay off staff. The issue isn't that you assess employees poorly...it is very hard to be right based on knowing someone for a couple of hours...but that it is so hard to get rid of someone if you are wrong. Would you marry someone after meeting for as long as the interview? That is the decision for a lot of companies. I think that i…

To fire people in DK is possible but I would not call it easy. It takes money - for example if the person worked at the same company for 3 years, it takes 4 months salary if the person was hired using a standard contract which follows a law called "funktionærloven" written to create rules between company and employees.

Yes...and DK has the most job flexibility in the world.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#647

Post by peferron » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

fsniper wrote: post #596

peferron wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> expecting people to spend 6 months on preparation for interviews considered normal or totally acceptable You're expected to be able to solve a certain set of problems. Whether you don't prepare at all, spend 6 months, or spend 6 years is up to you. Oh, and everything you need to prep is available in cheap books and websites. That's immensely superior to being required to spend 5 years and thousands of dollars in co…

Please look around, here you can find hundreds or thousands of people probably never used advanced algorithms for their lifetime except once or twice for their interviews. And you can see some who uses these daily who never implement them out of their heads but with intuition, preparation, effort, books and research. Oh and don't get me started that they all are compansated for. Which type do you think these intervie…

I'm not disputing that it's imperfect or wasteful, and I'm happy to see some companies trying different ways of interviewing that may not have these flaws.

I'm disputing that spending a few months to prepare for free and on your own schedule is particularly abnormal or unacceptable. Maybe we could do even less, but it's extremely benign in comparison with many other high-paying jobs.

Some people in this thread call the tech interview process hazing. It's a word that comes back on almost every HN discussion on the topic. Do you agree with that labelling? If you picked a random, non-software engineer person in the street and asked them whether solving algorithmic challenges at home for a few months before being flown all expenses paid to a tech campus to write on whiteboards and eat sushi constitutes hazing, what do you think would they answer? Remember that hazing regularly kills people and is categorized as a crime in California and many other places.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#648

Post by hogFeast » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

z3t4 wrote: post #621

hogFeast wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dear God, I wish companies were run like this. Everyone refers to these faceless "companies"...no, you are being hired by employees just like you who almost always overpay for staff. They overestimate their ability to assess talent, HR usually link their own salaries to the people they hire...it is a shitshow. Look at CEO pay, most CEOs are clueless. They are way overpaid. Google is a perfect example, that business i…

Actually most software business use that business model. Eg. buy low, sell high. The difference between market rates and wages are their profit.

That is true. It occurred to me after that I had seen that in consultancies...that works, it is possible to do this sustainably and with less churn.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#649

Post by SoylentYellow » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:30 PM UTC

holografix wrote: post #593

Sincere question: What are you all doing accepting these multi-hour, multi-day take away free consulting gigs? Say NO to this bullshit. Establish a deadline and clear guidelines and expectations: 1. I will not be doing any take away work at all. 2. You will explain how my GitHub repo, resumé, previous experience is insufficient to qualify me for the job in 100 words or more. 3. You will sign an NDA for whatever solut…

Unless you are a critically important hire / executive level, asking a company to sign an NDA for an interview would be the kiss of death for the vast majority of candidates. To get an NDA signed, I would have to get company lawyers and my upper management involved, which is not something I would do unless we desperately needed your skillset and had zero other options.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#650

Post by heartbeats » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:31 PM UTC

arp242 wrote: post #637

heartbeats wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's only really one place that can have these big tech companies, and that is the US. What technology companies of note do the UK have? It's just stupid nonsense like "writing spreadsheets for the local government" and minor web development. In tech, it really is US vs. ROW

You mean the kind of big companies that repeatedly break the law, engage in unethical behaviour, and put growth above all else? Yeah. Only the US has those. Congratulations. Plenty of tech companies in Europe either way; you just don't know about them. Do you think Europe is some poor underdeveloped continent with uneducated people who can only "write spreadsheets?" What a patronizing comment.

You have to break eggs to make omelettes. The US is the only country in the world (perhaps excepting China) with any tech industry of value, just as it is the only country with any finance industry of value.

Europe has some companies with IT departments, some American companies with European offices, and some no-name consultancies (which are often US-owned). The indigenous European tech industry is a complete joke, since there is hardly any of it.

A normal programmer in Europe earns maybe $2-4k per month, or $24-48k per year. For context, the American poverty line for a family of four is $24.3k, so they are earning about $21/month above the poverty line.

A normal programmer in the USA earns maybe $100k per year, and up to $300-400k if they work at a big company. In Europe, the CEO of an ostensibly big company might earn $300-400k. It's an utter joke.

That I haven't heard of the alleged European tech companies just goes to show my point. DeepL, what the hell is that? Spotify is somewhat larger-scale web development, but still just a Mickey Mouse startup. The NYSE couldn't even get their flag right! The other two (relatively serious companies) are located in the UK, which is slated to leave the European Union soon.