Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

641–650 of 660 posts

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#641

Post by Konnstann »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #614
humanrebar wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but so are Americans: white, black, Hispanic, etc.

Pick two random Indians and there's about a one in three chance that they won't even be able to talk to each other due to not sharing any common languages. The US has nothing remotely close to India's level of diversity.

Considering the US selects for English-speaking immigrants, and the fact that English is taught as a second language in a lot of the world, I don't think that's a valid way to measure "diversity".

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#642

Post by shadowgovt »

strathmeyer wrote: post #638
shadowgovt wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think the kids in poor immigrant neighborhoods are in worse positions than poor kids in eastern Kentucky? Your line of reasoning did a dodge there, swapping out between geographic demographics and racial demographics. I don't think all kids in poor immigrant neighborhoods are in worse positions than poor kids in Eastern Kentucky. I do think that all the white-looking kids in eastern Kentucky, regardless of o…

It's not fair to hurt people just because you think others have been hurt. You're just furthering the abuse. Many white people have been denied housing, education, and jobs because of their skin. You can't solve ignorance with more ignorance. You're literally talking about ruining peoples' lives because of your racism.

> Many white people have been denied housing, education, and jobs because of their skin.

[citation needed]

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#643

Post by shadowgovt »

tomschlick wrote: post #617
jqgatsby wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think "fixing income inequality" needs to mean that everyone is paid the same amount. It's reasonable to believe that isn't a million times more productive than their median employee, and that factors other than pure merit allowed them to amass that much wealth. Even if you did think that they were that meritorious, you could still make an argument that "fairness" should involve balancing both merit and utili…

> It's reasonable to believe that isn't a million times more productive than their median employee If a normal employee at say walmart brings in $100 worth of value a day to the company, and the CEO executes a few big multi-million dollar deals that month, then the CEO in fact would be significantly more productive (in terms of capital to the company) than the average employee. > and that factors other than pure meri…

> If a normal employee at say walmart brings in $100 worth of value a day to the company

If all the normal employees quit and Walmart can't replace them, how much money does Walmart lose?

Perhaps we should calculate value to the company based on that sort of reasoning.

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#644

Post by the_watcher »

rolltiide wrote: post #397
the_watcher wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affirming precedent is a part of setting and establishing precedent. It doesn't set a new precedent, but its absolutely a part of establishing precedent for the future.

Then the term precedent is overused and has lost its ability to emphasize the gravity of any situation. End

It has a very precise and important meaning in the context of American case law.

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#645

Post by azernik »

whatshisface wrote: post #435
azernik wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethnicity has nothing to do with genetics. Dictionary definition says "a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition"; Wikipedia has this starting paragraph: "An ethnic group or ethnicity is a category of people who identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry or on similarities such as common language or dialect, history, society, culture or nation. Ethn…

> usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy From Wikipedia. You're right that I didn't list every factor.

"Presumed" is the key point. e.g. Ethiopian Jews have no genetic relationship with other Israeli Jewish subgroups, people in Eastern Germany have just as much in common genetically with Poles as with Western Germans, etc. And when these things are brought up, many ethnic nationalists will shrug their shoulders and say "so what".

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#646

Post by azernik »

dannypgh wrote: post #556
azernik wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jewish is not an ethnicity, but Ashkenazi is This is, to put it mildly, an opinion rather than an established fact. Ethnicity is a social construct, and many Jewish societies do construct an ethnicity that crosses the intra-Jewish Ashkenazi/Sephardi/Persian/etc. lines. The biggest example of this is of course Israel, but you also see this in other mixed-background Jewish communities like e.g. Los Angeles or France,…

Your point is taken. But, I think there's consensus that the term "Jewish" doesn't unambiguously refer to an ethnicity, because one common definition is that Jewish refers to a religion. Orthodox Judiasm confers full "Jewishness" on Orthodox converts, and most ethnicity definitions have to double-check with one's birth / blood relatives. There is a belief that many of the "Jewish" ethnic groups form one nation (Zioni…

"Ethnicity" is more similar to tribal identities - there are usually ways of entering the group, which can be well- or ill-defined. See for example the traditional initiation ceremonies of many Native American tribes for non-members, or the recently-constructed avenues for Soviet-era Russian immigrants and their descendants to join the Baltic ethnicities. In the reverse direction, Halpulaar'en consider those who have shifted to speaking Wolof to have left the ethnic group. (Note, though, that they are usually not then considered by the Wolof to have entered their ethnic group, creating a serious social problem.)

To continue the example of Zionist ideology, even secular Zionists consider converts to be Jews, and many consider converts to non-Jewish religions to have exited the tribe. Non-Jewish immigrants and their descendants who speak Hebrew as a native language may or may not be considered members depending on the person.

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#647

Post by azernik »

fortran77 wrote: post #477
azernik wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jewish is not an ethnicity, but Ashkenazi is This is, to put it mildly, an opinion rather than an established fact. Ethnicity is a social construct, and many Jewish societies do construct an ethnicity that crosses the intra-Jewish Ashkenazi/Sephardi/Persian/etc. lines. The biggest example of this is of course Israel, but you also see this in other mixed-background Jewish communities like e.g. Los Angeles or France,…

When I'm in the United States, about half the time, I pray with a Chabad Minyan. About half the people there are not Ashkenazi, despite Chabad's Ashkenazi origins. We have Persians, Yeminites, Ethiopians, Syrians, etc, and people whose families have lived in greater Israel area for generations.

If you don't mind my asking, where in the US is this Chabad minyan?

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#648

Post by javagram »

mfer wrote: post #444
javagram wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every college is subject to this law because they accept federal grants and loans for students during the admissions process. There are only a few conservative religious schools that are exceptions. They refuse all federal funds to prevent such laws applying. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grove_City_College_v._Bell

Thanks for the pointer. It also says... > However, the Court also held that the regulation would apply only to the institution's financial aid department, not to the school as a whole.

Yes, but that part of the decision was overruled as noted on the page:

> The decision by the Supreme Court was effectively overturned when the United States Congress subsequently passed the Civil Rights Restoration Act of 1987, which specified that recipients of federal funds must comply with civil rights laws in all areas, not just in the particular program or activity that received federal funding.

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#649

Post by Volundr »

nilkn wrote: post #568
shadowgovt wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think the kids in poor immigrant neighborhoods are in worse positions than poor kids in eastern Kentucky? Your line of reasoning did a dodge there, swapping out between geographic demographics and racial demographics. I don't think all kids in poor immigrant neighborhoods are in worse positions than poor kids in Eastern Kentucky. I do think that all the white-looking kids in eastern Kentucky, regardless of o…

It’s almost 2020, not 1940. We have major cities that are majority nonwhite. We have entire statewide school districts that are mostly nonwhite. We have huge metropolitan areas that are mostly nonwhite. You can walk into an expensive luxury apartment complex in an immigrant heavy city and find tons of nonwhite people.

The Little Rock Nine was 1957. What do you believe happened to all those people who protested and threatened violence against those children? What do you think they taught their children?

The idea that we have somehow magically eradicated racism over the course of a single generation astounds me.

Seriously, it's almost 2020. You should get how close to the 1960s that is.

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#650

Post by bsanr2 »

fzeroracer wrote: post #467
dmix wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should historical discrimination matter to the policy? If at all, it should be about discrimination today.

Let's say that your parents were discriminated against, and were unable to go to college, or find a good job, or were actively lynched due to their race. Do you think their kids might be affected by say, the economic troubles their parents might've gone through, or the fact that they lost family due to the racial animus at the time? Or how about if those families were relegated to places designed specifically for the…

It's simpler than that. If legacy status can influence your ability to enter university, then whether or not your parents were barred entry has a direct effect on whether or not you will be able to get in.
Post reply on HN