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Google Is Eating Our Mail

tablix.org

641–650 of 720 posts

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had gmail send the following to the spam folder: - Legitimate class action notices related to Amazon purchases. - Email coming from addresses to which I had already sent email. (!) - Email from my landlord. - Email coming from Google itself. Based on the contents of my spam folder, which I have to check fairly often because of the extreme overaggressiveness, I would be vastly better off if nothing ever got filte…

Your comment motivated me to check my Gmail spam folder and 10% (3 out of 30) were false positives, two of which were pretty important. :(

Ditto, Multiple missed emails from factory owner in fuzhou I'm on site doing business with and actively emailing back and forth with daily. Despite the back and forth communication some of the direct messages were in the spam folder. This could have caused me some major issues.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#642
post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"morally outdated" ?

I would make an educated guess that "arpa" is from EX-USSR and their native language is Russian. It's direct translation of idiom "морально устаревший" which literally means something is: * Available for decades. * Far from being top notch technology. * Sometimes of course it's literally mean outdated. Like if you run older CentOS or Debian with decade-old packages. So it's doesn't mean SpamAssassin is bad, but it's…

Bulgarian has that too: "Морално остарял"

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#643
post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

Multiple reasons, but here are a few of them: - Email is hard to get right. There are many subtle configuration mistakes you can make, and it's pretty hard to detect those mistakes (hence one of the reasons why I started Mailhardener) - Your users will have high expectations. For email to be used effectively users expect email to work on many devices, have a webmail client, calendar integration, a good search functio…

> - Email is hard to get right. There are many subtle configuration mistakes you can make, and it's pretty hard to detect those mistakes (hence one of the reasons why I started Mailhardener)

It's not that hard if I've done it right. ;-)

Jokes aside, yes, it's a bit overwhelming at the beginning, but I don't find it that cumbersome to keep it running. That is, it wouldn't be if Google was not actively being malicious in this regard.

> - Your users will have high expectations. For email to be used effectively users expect email to work on many devices, have a webmail client, calendar integration, a good search function, good spam detection, infinite backups, ability to have huge attachments, etc, etc.

From my experience, these aren't that hard to set up.

If you're a corporation, your users are your employees. This is a bit different than if you were an email hosting company where users were paying for your product. In the former case, it is your responsibility to handle this well to serve the company's needs. It either serves you well or it does not.

> - Your spam filter is never going to be as effective as that of the big email services. They have ML based spam filters that are constantly evolving. Even if you were to have access to their ML models, you wouldn't have enough data to effectively train that model.

I'm not convinced by this argument. As others have stated, I've also had very bad experiences with Gmail's spam filtering. It has a very high false positive rate which often makes email go unnoticed until it's too late. I have a basic SpamAssassin setup for my self-hosted email and it works marvelously. It very rarely lets spam through and I haven't had a single false positive yet.

> But for >99% of organisations, it just won't make any sense to run their own email.

Perhaps, but the solution is decidedly not going to the monopolist. Hiring an email hosting company instead of doing it yourself is reasonable, though.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#644

Google has no incentive to fix these kinds of problems. It's big enough that when someone complains that a message sent wasn't received, the intended recipient will say, "I never have problems with my Gmail account. It must be you." And the sender has to switch to Gmail to reliably communicate with the outside world. I wish this was just paranoia, but we've seen multiple discussions on HN about Google programs and po…

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

What about amp for email as network effect?

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#645
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

I appreciate the response. From someone who has operated a mail server since 2002, it comes across that Gmail does not care about cooperating with small but legitimate mail servers. SPF, DKIM, reverse DNS, no blacklists, no open relay, longtime ownership of IPs, etc etc. Using various mail testers returns a 10/10 deliverability score. And yet, messages sent to Gmail always go into the spam folder, or are never delive…

Have you looked into WildDuck.email? I find it very nicely made for people who wants to run their own email. Still in Beta. FYI, I'm just a js developer not related to them.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#646
post #594
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you are being downvoted, you have a point. There is no excuse for the way Google is operating now - poor customer support, the only recourse twits and HN posts. I think it also hurts Google themselves. There is a reason they have trouble competing with AWS. Why should developers trust Google that there will be a person on the other side helping them out when things go wrong? And they always do, at worst…

> - define, hardcode and publish rules that will lead to successfull e-mail delivery (SPF, DKIM, history,...) This has existed for years: https://toolbox.googleapps.com/apps/checkmx/check?domain=tab... If your site passes and is not on a blacklist, your email gets delivered.

This is not doing what you think it does. And it's the second comment where you are spreading your misinformation I've seen in this thread now. :( This tool is for people who want to send their emails via GSuite and their own domain. Not a lot of people in this thread want that, and it certainly has nothing to do at all with what is being discussed in the comment threads where you replied to.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#647
post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, if you check this site: https://toolbox.googleapps.com/apps/checkmx/check?domain=tab... It is not to be set up correctly. Now in your case, you failed to mention DMARC records. ALL of the big cloud email services have required that for years. Your SMTP server checklist is straight out of 2005. This entire thread reminds me of the guy who pulled out of a desk drawer an Analog Startac cell phone and blame…

What does this mean? > error SPF must allow Google servers to send mail on behalf of your domain. So you must let Google spoof your domain? That seems crazy. ProtonMail has the same error: https://toolbox.googleapps.com/apps/checkmx/check?domain=pro...

He's wrong about what this tool provides – namely information for people who want to use GSuite for their email. In that context it makes sense that you have to allow Google "spoofing" your domain, of course. But it has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#648

Google has no incentive to fix these kinds of problems. It's big enough that when someone complains that a message sent wasn't received, the intended recipient will say, "I never have problems with my Gmail account. It must be you." And the sender has to switch to Gmail to reliably communicate with the outside world. I wish this was just paranoia, but we've seen multiple discussions on HN about Google programs and po…

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

But then, how can a simple heuristic like "hey, this guy has sent and received messages from this non-google address before, we should most definitely not drop incoming mail from there" not be in place? I gmail is pretty much the only google service I still use. In pretty much all regards, google has repeatedly disappointed me over the last couple years. A couple months ago, gmail suddenly started dropping incoming mails from a mailing list I've been subscribed to for 8(!!!) years, three times so far. Exactly like in the linked blog post here.

To sum it up: sorry, but what you're saying here doesn't sound like it's true, and if it is let me tell you that you're failing at it, miserably. The only reason I didn't move away from gmail is that it's just a lot of work. But the time will come, eventually.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#649
post #624
post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just cleaned out a little over 100 emails in my Gmail spam filter yesterday. About 80% of what was in there were emails from YouTube giving me notifications of new videos people have uploaded that I am subscribed to. These emails never used to go to spam, but slowly over time more and more of them would end up in spam. It's at the point now where almost all of them from YouTube go to the spam folder. It doesn't mak…

> It's at the point now where almost all of them from YouTube go to the spam folder. It doesn't make any sense since they are emails from Google It makes a lot of sense... people use the spam button as a lazy man's unsubscribe. Youtube adding the bell button, making mail opt in is probably a response to that. I actually give Google a lot of cred for not simply white-listing its own domains. Though spammers would prob…

> people use the spam button as a lazy man's unsubscribe

This is the small mail server crux right here. If you’re a small mail server and a few of your emails have been spam binned instead of unsubscribed, it would likely lead to your whole server getting shit canned.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#650
post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normally I wouldn't +1 a message because it doesn't really seem to add much to the message. But in this case I will (even though it might earn me ire from some). If I could highlight the parent in bold I would. I've run mail servers since the mid 90's and the experience above exactly mirrors my experience. And my takeaway is the same, GMail just doesn't seem to care. I understand that GMail can't give away too much i…

Add me to the "I've run mail servers since the mid 90's and the experience above exactly mirrors my experience." list.

Early 2000's for me, and yes, similar experience. What was really interesting to me is that my home domains had no problem emailing my work and side bit gmail based mail service a few weeks ago. Then, suddenly, this stopped working.

I changed jobs as well, and now work is using a MSFT based hosted mail service, and I am getting delay messages.

Seriously, GOOG, MSFT, and others broke mail. This is not an improvement.

I've not looked into speaking with MSFT mail folks about their breakage yet. With GOOG, you have really no mechanism of reaching out to someone there and getting attention for the problem they are causing.

This is the much bigger problem with GOOG actually, in case any googley people are reading this. They just don't get customer service. At all. It is near impossible to be able to report a real problem across the spectrum of their services. Unless you are one of their bigger customers, you don't have access to even a telephone support number. Their online help is a crapshoot, with you getting useful information less than 50% of the time.

So where I am now is with locked down, long time existing domain mail servers, which send maybe 5-10 outbound messages per month, that suddenly and inexplicably, have a bad reputation. Well, no they don't have a bad reputation, they can send email just fine to other services.

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