Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#641

Post by ocdtrekkie » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 11:52 PM UTC

fancyfacebook wrote: post #609

jpttsn wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s convenient.

That a tech worker on a tech website knows some people at a major tech company? Guess what I know people that work at almost every tech company you've heard of, that's what happens when you get old. Try just going to eat at the Pho place across the street from Google in Boulder sometime, you'll hear people openly complaining about Sundar and Susan and chatting about their latest projects at full volume without a care…

I assume the parent meant that it was convenient they didn't talk about the topic, or that you couldn't give examples. Most everyone on HN knows a lot of people at major tech companies.

Anyways, we'll see what happens, if the company doesn't give in perhaps we will see some more "why I quit Google" blogs down the road.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#642

Post by bmelton » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 11:52 PM UTC

spynxic wrote: post #635

bmelton wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You state: > you shouldn't be able to walk around with a rocket launcher or semi-automatic weapon Generally speaking, this statement speaks to a lack of information regarding what semi-automatic is or what it means. Most firearms sold today are semi-automatic. Banning semi-automatic firearms bans the majority of firearms. That you later go on to state "You don't need automatic weapons to defend..." implies to me that…

> Finally, you make a very common mistake when you assert "you can't yell 'fire' in a movie theater". I thought the 'mistake' would be assuming that this action is prohibited even in the event of a fire. Now I question if it is assumed to apply unconditionally, even during a fire. And if so, what is the appropriate way to deal with such an event

So, _Schenck_ has largely been overturned on a number of occasions, but the following (untested) likely still holds as punishable (but not forbidden against through ante-hoc regulations):

* _Falsely_ shouting fire

* in a crowded theater

* for the purpose of imminently inciting harm to others

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#643

Post by geodel » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 11:53 PM UTC

stevehawk wrote: post #451

magneticnorth wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know at least one Googler who really will quit if Google continues to contribute to drone warfare research. Yes, they like the high paychecks, five-star meals and massages, but the market for ML and AI experts is very strong right now. The high paycheck can be matched elsewhere, and the benefits of not contributing to drone warfare research are worth spending a bit of that money on food and massages. But as I said,…

Since Google isn't going to stop this work, I'd love to hear when this person actually leaves.

I would be more interested if 10% of petitioners leave. Single accomplished person can easily move defending their moral position.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#644

Post by Romanulus » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 11:54 PM UTC

SahAssar wrote: post #571

harimau777 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that fundamental human rights means rights that exist inherently regardless of whether the UN or any given country recognizes them. My feeling is that people have a right to self defense, which would require them to have access to some effective weapon. In theory that could be a club or blade rather than a firearm; however, currently firearms are the only (somewhat) socially acceptable weapon to carry in th…

You have a right to not be harmed, but that does not give you the right to harm others.

This assumes rights are universal.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#645

Post by ocdtrekkie » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 11:55 PM UTC

geodel wrote: post #640

magneticnorth wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know at least one Googler who really will quit if Google continues to contribute to drone warfare research. Yes, they like the high paychecks, five-star meals and massages, but the market for ML and AI experts is very strong right now. The high paycheck can be matched elsewhere, and the benefits of not contributing to drone warfare research are worth spending a bit of that money on food and massages. But as I said,…

Respect to that one Googler. But are those 3000 in the category of experts which would hurt Google if they leave. I am doubtful that paycheck can be match elsewhere in companies which are more morally upright than Google. However if it is single issue protest about military but acts regarding user data usage, financial, environmental or other type of dodgy behavior is okay then these people can definitely move on to…

Any three thousand people leaving would be a huge hit. There's massive retraining costs and inefficiencies with lost knowledge, even if you could extremely quickly hire 3,000 qualified replacements above their existing hiring rate. The article does suggest some very senior names are signatories, but obviously doesn't disclose who.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#646

Post by donw » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 11:56 PM UTC

mattwad wrote: post #596

zaroth wrote: post #141

It boggles my mind, with the current state of affairs, the number of people actively organizing to eliminate or curtail our fundamental human rights. It seems to me that 1st and 2nd amendment rights are both under particularly intense bombardment these days.

How do you think the 2nd amendment is under assault? If you look at the list of things our youth were marching for[1], it doesn't say anything about taking guns away. Just like you can't yell "fire" in a movie theater, you shouldn't be able to walk around with a rocket launcher or semi-automatic weapon. Also, there's no way in hell any group of citizens can fight the US army these days so it seems like a moot point.…

The average Joe or Jane gun owner in the United States can not purchase, and does not own, automatic weapons.

Literally tens of millions of responsible Americans walk around, every day, carrying semi-automatic weapons, and this is not a problem.

This is also true in the Czech Republic! Shall-issue, just like Texas. They are one of the safest countries in the EU.

You are far more likely to be shot by a cop, than by a citizen legally carrying a semi-automatic weapon.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#647

Post by tzakrajs » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 11:57 PM UTC

Gargoyle wrote: post #104

tzakrajs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Google won't take a defense contract and has shed defense projects in the past" was a common theme at Google. Recruiters and employees actively advertised this as a feature of Google's not being evil.

Do Google employees actually believe this?

Supposedly, and this is hearsay, but when Google bought Skybox Imaging, they cancelled their government contract(s) and kept the private ones. The idea commonly believed amongst employees there was that they did not want to provide intelligence services to the federal government.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#648

Post by Qualman » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 11:57 PM UTC

grellas wrote: post #533

Where does one draw a line these days among the personal, the moral, the legal, and the political? The military application in question is legal and is approved by a duly elected government that supports it politically. In earlier days, employees generally would see this as just doing their jobs in developing technology that their employers wanted developed and would not concern themselves about ultimate uses and app…

There's a lot to unpack here, but it seems that the gist of it is that things that happen in our society are because humanity is some kind of untamable animal, and that we should all just resign to letting it run wild as it does.

Do you not believe that society is only the sum of its parts? Do you not believe that the mathematics of society can be changed, the more parts of the equation object to letting their talents be used for unscrupulous goals?

I would point you towards any cultural shift in modern society, and how it began—usually, as the imbalance of classes further divides, until one class can't tolerate it any further, and uses what power they have to reset the scales. That is what is happening today, and it isn't a fluke of the short attention span of the beast of humanity. It is a conscious, concerted effort of people in this country who are tired of existing in a system devoid of morals. And to frame it as something like embracing the status quo, or becoming a puritanical society, is simply a false dichotomy.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#649

Post by strainer » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 11:58 PM UTC

rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

They cost a great deal of R&D budget for their role in the development IT technology, and the larger part of development came from non military research, from academia and companies like Bell Labs.

The Google workers urging their CEO to pull out of Pentagon projects are the ones who do not have such short memories as to be distracted from the blatant deceptions and disasters carried out in recent history, with no sign of relenting.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#650

Post by sureaboutthis » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 11:59 PM UTC

teen wrote: post #625

adsgjlnionio wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think the US should stop developing military technology? I doubt it, and I doubt many Google employees do, either. I doubt they would be happy to live in a world where the U.S. has a weaker military than countries like China or Russia. I also doubt they would approve of throwing out our advanced targeting technology in favor of Vietnam-style carpet bombing. They are uncomfortable with killing people even thoug…

.

If that would ever happen, we wouldn't be talking about this at all. Reality check!