James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#641

Post by lnino » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:04 PM UTC

odorousrex wrote: post #580

lnino wrote: post #559

The merit (or lack thereof) of his claims and views matter little in this case. The case is visible enough and touches on politically relevant points enough so that there will be tons of people on both sides willing to fund this case all the way to supreme court. Then there is the problem with how damaging discovery would be to the company. It will probably will get settled fast, with Google paying him a few years wo…

It simply comes down to money. Damore was fired because he was bad for business. Not because he's white, male, conservative, or the contents of his memo. Had the memo not been leaked publicly, I have no doubt he'd still be working at Google and his memo ignored and/or forgotten. He simply became too much of lightning rod for Google to continue to employ him. Google will settle for the same reason. It is better for bu…

Spot on.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#642

Post by jonny_eh » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:07 PM UTC

viridian wrote: post #334

jonny_eh wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and denies the moon landing. That doesn't make him right wing, but it sure makes him a less credible person. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/02/26/jo...

He denied it 11 years ago you mean, by that blog post. He has changed his stance, as seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mmlmxamw_k You should listen to his episode with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, they talk about the mindset of denialism quite a bit.

I had no idea, thanks!

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#643

Post by hsod » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:07 PM UTC

ryguytilidie wrote: post #632

hsod wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What hyperbole are you objecting to? On net, do you think Rogan's political commentary favors the status quo or a more equal society? Imagine you think fire trucks are an eyesore, so you start an advocacy campaign trying to ban them from the road. Someone might accuse you of not caring if people's houses burn down. You might reply that deep in your heart you are 100% against houses burning down and you're just weighi…

"What hyperbole are you objecting to?" Your entire first post. 1) He doesnt "spend a lot of time railing on SJWs". 2) He absolutely talks, with almost every single guest, about how to potentially change the world for the better. 3) I never indicated that I thought he wasn't right wing because of how he felt about legal pot, yet, you throw that in there anyway, i guess to belittle an argument I never made? Fun... So y…

> wow that is an atrocious analogy

For a guy so concerned with the rules of debate, you sure do like to make strong claims without offering even a shred of argumentation.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#644

Post by tziki » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:07 PM UTC

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

> Perhaps the reason people don't feel sorry for conservative white males is that if they are rejected by one company they can keep trying and will find an "old school" company that will hire them. We have not had that luxury, for blacks and women it was 100 nos for every 1 yes. It's not that way for white guys, sorry.

More recent studies don't show any bias against women in callback rates. In fact, some show slight bias for women (and if you're willing to look at non peer reviewed sources, more than a slight: https://talent.works/blog/2018/01/08/the-science-of-the-job-...)

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#645

Post by lifeisunfair » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:10 PM UTC

I think the whole story worked in favor of Google.

As a middle aged white male software engineer, this story had made it less likely for me to apply to Google.

Firstly, the odds are against me as I have to do much better than people who would improve their diversity numbers.

Secondly, I can't help but feel that the only reason they want me to interview is to improve their stats by rejecting me.

But I guess it was about time for the tables to turn.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#646

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:10 PM UTC

bertil wrote: post #578

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #480

You need a very minimal amount of social skill to succeed in programming - just enough to not piss coworkers off too badly while working together on projects. Past that, you get mostly quiet and controlled environments, managers willing to let you work on your special interests, and generally get left alone to stare at your screen and type things out. This is one of the best working environments you can find for auti…

Your argument that “inclusivity-in-tech [is] ableist for wanting to destroy this niche in the pursuit of making the programming niche more welcoming to other groups” is interesting and probably a much better way to represent a claim similar to Damore in a far less offensive way to women. I can personally name a handful of non-neuro-typical people who would wholeheartedly agree (half of them females because my friends…

[deleted]

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#647

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:12 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #638

FabHK wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1. Most of the pieces about the memo didn't take time to highlight that "neuroticism" and "agreeableness" refer to Big-5 personality traits, not the everyday understanding of the words. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits Most of the pieces didn't distinguish between descriptive and normative statements. Most of the pieces didn't distinguish between statements about distribution of something wi…

Except the Big Five has been debunked as being too lexical for biological differentiation. Basically its lexical nature introduces perceptual bias that skews any factor analysis for biological structures - i.e. behavior between genders, for example. The way Damore uses it to support his hypothesis wasn't correct. >And that is what the Big Five represents: a consistent model of how humans reflect individuality using l…

Except the Big Five has been debunked as being too lexical for biological differentiation.

Thanks for that. I find that reaction much more informative than the name-calling sent at James Damore.

In this sense we can say that the Big Five does not represent the structure of temperament or the structure of biologically based traits, even though lexical perception reflects some elements of it.

Well, one should expect that something based on self-report surveys to be about that disconnected from underlying biology. "...lexical perception reflects some elements of it" -- where {it} == {underlying biology}

As per usual, the reality of what goes on inside us is probably more complicated than our mental model of it.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#648

Post by Digory » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:13 PM UTC

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #549

Digory wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans, even those who attend good schools, do not understand statistical claims. This leaves them susceptible to all kinds of flim flam, especially when they are invested in an idea.

> Americans, even those who attend good schools, do not understand statistical claims. I'm having some difficulty understanding your statement. Would you mind clarifying a few things? - Do you mean all Americans, or just some? - When you say "do not understand", what do you mean by that? - I'm unclear as to why you specifically mentioned Americans. Are you comparing them to some other group(s)? And if so, which one(s…

>I'm having some difficulty understanding your statement.

Heh. I rest my case.

But, to respond directly: of course, I'm speaking colloquially to suggest many Americans.

I specifically mention Americans because this discussion is about an American suing an American company, in a kerfuffle over American ideals (and law) of sex nondiscrimination. American education norms seem to leave even bright people susceptible to deep confusion when claims are based on statistics.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#649

Post by wpietri » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:13 PM UTC

saas_co_de wrote: post #481

praestigiare wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You claim that there is a pattern of bad diversity hires, but your anecdotes are just as easily explained by confirmation bias: You see an incompetent male engineer, and you write him off as an idiot and forget him. You see an incompetent woman, and she becomes evidence that there is a problem with diversity programs. You remember evidence that supports your narrative. Obviously my statement is not evidence either. I…

This can definitely be the case. There are lots of sh--ty white male programmers working in the industry. I have met plenty of white men who have masters level CS education, have worked for Google and other top name companies, and can't produce a line of useful working code to save their lives. The reasons why corporations frequently hire people who don't actually produce anything are varied and complex, but it happe…

And I'd add that there's evidence (and plenty of anecdote) that the men who most object to diversity are not so good at what they do. Which makes sense; they are the ones who have the most to lose from an increased talent pool. [1]

Personally, I'd be very interested to see Damore's code. We already know that he lied about both a PhD and being a chess master. [2] I would not be shocked at all to find out that he's not good at programming.

[1] http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjourna...

[2] https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/18271/is-james-dam...

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#650

Post by philipkglass » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:18 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #547

philipkglass wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brendan Eich seems to be doing ok now. The furor that severed his relationship with Mozilla doesn't seem to have impacted Brave, and that was just a few years ago.

By doing ok, you mean he is no longer a CEO of company with hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue that he helped create, but instead he is running a startup that hardly anyone heard about. At what point you’d say he no longer does ok? When he’s homeless?

He's still an executive in tech. When I read news about Brave the controversy over Eich's Proposition 8 support doesn't dominate comments sections the way it did in 2014. That controversy seems to have had limited impact on Eich or Brave in later years. I would have liked to look at the later impact on someone in tech lower-level than Eich who faced the outrage machine, but his was the only name I could remember.

After some more searching, I remembered the blowup over a "big dongles" joke at PyCon in 2013. I found the name of one of the men involved. I don't want to name him here, but it looks like he's still gainfully employed in tech, using Python.

I agree that social media outrage can be overblown and vicious. I don't want to minimize that. But it fades[1]. "Crucified for life" seems inaccurate.

[1] Even justified outrage fades; did #kony2012 even trend through the end of 2012? But the viciousness while every angry person knows your name can be astonishing. That's why I use a nym here and on Ars Technica that has no direct links to my professional or IRL identities, and why I usually skip commenting or reading about the outrage du jour. I must be feeling lucky today to write even this much.