Live data from Hacker News

E Pur Si Muove

blog.samaltman.com

641–650 of 853 posts

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#641
post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, the "logical response" isn't an accurate description of most liberals. The original statement is. The fact that a liberal thinks that "conservative" should be replaced with "intolerant" is a symptom of the problem that I describe.

You say in your experience, 'most liberals' act in the original statement. Are you willing to entertain the possibility that your impression might be mistaken? You probably don't really think about the times a liberal person is reasonable and logical. You certainly will remember the ridiculous liberal who says illogical things. Might that be skewing your impression of what 'most' liberals believe?

Your assumptions about my political views are mistaken. I was a liberal who moved to libertarian.

The statement that I made about minimum wage has the effect that I describe because it is a major liberal-conservative argument. As soon as someone states a position on raising the minimum wage, everyone else around will tend to assume that they know their political position. I could have produced other examples ranging from approving oil pipelines to the wisdom of tax cuts to cost effective ways to produce health care.

Now you may be atypical. But most liberals/conservatives respond with the same pattern. They figure out whether you're with/against, and then respond emotionally. And the issues do not neatly divide on "intolerance".

More interesting, the dividing issues change over time. Today woman's rights is obviously a liberal issue. If you go back 100 years, allowing women the right to vote was just as obviously a conservative one, because women were a reliable vote for Prohibition, which was a thinly veiled tool to attack blacks, Jews, Irish, and other "undesirables". You can thank the KKK for helping women get the vote in this country.

The dividing line really isn't as simple as it seems at the moment. But it is sometimes easier to see this with the perspective of history.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#642

Shortly prior to the recent US presidential election, I worked next to a nice, smart young man from California who went to a well-known progressive university in the bay area. Politics was very rarely discussed at work, but in the weeks before the election, there was some cross talk in the isles. He trusted me enough to message me privately that he was planning to vote for Trump. At that time, I was quite anxious abo…

> I think that a pretty big chunk of Trump's votes came from people who would otherwise not have voted for him...but did so because they sensed, correctly, that their thoughts, ideas and voices were being marginalized (and demonized) by progressives.

That may be what you personally felt in this single personal anecdote, but it is not at all supported by the results for the bay area in the election[1].

There were an enormous number of Trump voters who explicitly stated that they voted for him because he was the only national candidate to criticize things like NAFTA and other policies which directly hurt them and/or people they knew. Presented with a series of bad options, they picked the guy who spoke to their concerns and naively wrote off the outlandish comments as news-cycle spam. Go back and look at the contested areas in Michigan and Pennsylvania where Trump did well. Or go back and listen to the town hall Bernie Sanders did after the election in West Virginia where Trump performed well-- you can listen directly to what swayed them the most. It wasn't a fear of retribution from progressive tech bosses for non-progressive ideas. It was jobs.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/california-preside...

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#643
post #364

Shortly prior to the recent US presidential election, I worked next to a nice, smart young man from California who went to a well-known progressive university in the bay area. Politics was very rarely discussed at work, but in the weeks before the election, there was some cross talk in the isles. He trusted me enough to message me privately that he was planning to vote for Trump. At that time, I was quite anxious abo…

Leaning in from outside the US, the path forward is obvious. "Progressives" should embrace guns and reject abortion. That would make them palatable to these mysterious deplorables that seem to hold sway over the US political system, giving them access to the halls of power. Then said progressives, having kept their powder dry, could expend it on what really matters - convincing the deplorables that science is a thing…

Sad that, it seems, any political comment with a spark of humour on here is voted down.

From G.K. Chesterton: "A critic once remonstrated with me saying, with an air of indignant reasonableness, “If you must make jokes, at least you need not make them on such serious subjects.” I replied with a natural simplicity and wonder, “About what other subjects can one make jokes except serious subjects?” It is quite useless to talk about profane jesting. All jesting is in its nature profane, in the sense that it must be the sudden realization that something which thinks itself solemn is not so very solemn after all.

... The thing which is fundamentally and really frivolous is not a careless joke. The thing which is fundamentally and really frivolous is a careless solemnity. If Mr. McCabe really wishes to know what sort of guarantee of reality and solidity is afforded by the mere act of what is called talking seriously, let him spend a happy Sunday in going the round of the pulpits. Or, better still, let him drop in at the House of Commons or the House of Lords. Even Mr. McCabe would admit that these men are solemn — more solemn than I am. And even Mr. McCabe, I think, would admit that these men are frivolous — more frivolous than I am. Why should Mr. McCabe be so eloquent about the danger arising from fantastic and paradoxical writers? Why should he be so ardent in desiring grave and verbose writers? There are not so very many fantastic and paradoxical writers. But there are a gigantic number of grave and verbose writers; and it is by the efforts of the grave and verbose writers that everything that Mr. McCabe detests (and everything that I detest, for that matter) is kept in existence and energy. How can it have come about that a man as intelligent as Mr. McCabe can think that paradox and jesting stop the way? It is solemnity that is stopping the way in every department of modern effort. It is his own favourite “serious methods;” it is his own favourite “momentousness;” it is his own favourite “judgment” which stops the way everywhere." - from Heretics, 1905

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/chesterton/heretics.xvi.html

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think everyone (including me) agrees that you shouldn't arrest or legally stop people from expressing their opinions That simply isn't the case; definitely not "everyone". > and we shouldn't call people 'heretics' for their ideas no matter what those ideas are Indeed, those people are wrong; if you want to publicly call someone a heretic, or whatever, (in a non-harassing way), that's just your freedom of expressi…

Obviously 'everyone' is an exaggeration; a vast majority, then. You should not be able to keep a person out of your restaurant because of their views, but the job one is tricky and nuanced. I think there are certain beliefs that a person could hold that are valid disqualifications for hiring that person; for example, if a person is advocating that women shouldn't be allowed to work and should stay at home because the…

Do you support the Civil Rights Act?

A person who holds the views that you describe because he is an Orthodox Jew cannot be fired for said views. No, I'm not making that up. Perhaps you should think carefully about what "freedom of religion" means to you!

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#645
post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "you are unethical for doing this research" is very different from saying "I think there are serious problems with extending human life". One is a legitimate criticism and is vital to public debate. The other is name calling.

I think the author explicitly states we need to be okay with name calling later on? "This is uncomfortable, but it’s possible we have to allow people to say disparaging things about gay people..."

This is uncomfortable if you're Sam Altman, but it's possible we have to allow people to say disparaging things about Sam Altman.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#646
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can definitely stop science. There's a reason we don't secretly infect populations with various diseases just to see what happens anymore.

> anymore and I'd also add "to the best of our armchair knowledge"

I thought yours a very interesting, worthwhile and thought-provoking comment. I'm puzzled why it's voted down. Maybe too succinct. 3^4 words good, 3^2 words baad?

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there are muslims who don't hate gay people or who find their relationship to islam to have nothing to do with gay rights. I'm not sure you will find many liberals who are hunky dory with muslims who hate gay people, but instead they will say that it is not okay to hate a muslim person when you don't know their personal stance on things like gay marriage.

There are plenty of moderate conservatives and christians that don't hate gay people either. I'm not sure what your point is. My point is that, statistically, a Muslim is much more likely to have extreme beliefs on social issues.

Why would you judge someone by the beliefs they're "statistically likely" to have?

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#648
Somewhat similarly, in Hutterite colonies only men voted (dunno about today.) So what they said was very strictly watched and proscribed since their opinions mattered. Males rarely dared to criticize anything in the colony. In contrast females could criticize whatever they cared too with few consequences. They didn't vote so their opinions weren't perceived as threatening order very much.

I think de Tocqueville made a similar report about America a very long time ago, that Americans had to self-censor, French peasants didn't - they didn't vote so the powers that be cared little about their opinions.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#649
post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously 'everyone' is an exaggeration; a vast majority, then. You should not be able to keep a person out of your restaurant because of their views, but the job one is tricky and nuanced. I think there are certain beliefs that a person could hold that are valid disqualifications for hiring that person; for example, if a person is advocating that women shouldn't be allowed to work and should stay at home because the…

Do you support the Civil Rights Act? A person who holds the views that you describe because he is an Orthodox Jew cannot be fired for said views. No, I'm not making that up. Perhaps you should think carefully about what "freedom of religion" means to you!

[deleted]

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that reasoning you should avoid everyone right? Because all people have a potential for violence. The odds of a trans person being murdered by a transphobic person are phenomenally low. I think you need to balance risk vs return. Just like driving a car has costs and risks it may be worth it to get to the grocery store.

No, not really. Most people are not violent without good reason. But if you are gay, trans or in any group that gets targeted for violence by irrational people without any provocation beyond being a member of that group, you need to consider that open verbal hostility is a potential indicator of willingness to harm you in some way.

How grounded is this in data? I think there are two questions that need to be answered. First, it is not a given that everyone is capable of violence. There are some people who will not carry out violence, this is pretty much the vast majority. But it’s hard to predict who can commit violence and who will not. Given this small amount of people who commit violence, what is the probability of people with open verbal hostility who commit violence?

Without answering these two questions it is rather illogical to have your behavior change at all to someone who engages in open verbal hostility.

But you also need to distinguish between verbal hostility that is threatening vs non-threatening (ie, “I really don’t like people of class X.” Vs “I am going to punch people of class X in the face.”)

This also doesn’t account for the people are aren’t gay or trans yet are also targeted by irrational people (eg, Las Vegas victims).

Post reply on HN