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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

projekte.sueddeutsche.de

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#641

Post by threeseed »

culturalzero wrote: post #636
apendleton wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're acting like laws are an unmoving fundamental property of the universe. In reality these very companies have reshaped the laws to their own advantage. Companies that lobby on tax policy demonstrably pay lower taxes; see e.g., https://sunlightfoundation.com/2012/04/16/lobby-more-pay-les...

I wonder how many of these comments are made by Apple's legal or PR team posing as normal people... Certainly they have the reach and resources for this kind of thing too. Rarely do we get to have a real public discussion on such topics without adulteration by these parties with personal motivations and associated power.

Be serious.

(1) You really think Apple cares about the discussions on one thread of Hacker News ?

(2) Even if they did how would it be an effective use of resources. It may shift a handful of people at most. When instead that time could be spent speaking with journalists or writing press releases that could actually shift a lot of people.

(3) It's a slippery slope to keep calling everyone you disagree with shills or employees of a company. Especially since on an anonymous forum they could never be able to defend themselves.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#642

Post by jmalicki »

pavlov wrote: post #572
tskaiser wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admit to be completely out of my depth, but my understanding is that it is a fiduciary duty of the directors to act in the best interest of the shareholders. Tax planning is a huge part of profit and thus shareholder value, so wouldn't such "gross negligence" represent a breach of fiduciary duty?

Suing directors for negligence is not easy at all. It's hard to imagine a shareholder lawsuit that basically says: "As a director you didn't guide management to move operations to Jersey, so we want you to pay us $100 million"... It's even harder to imagine a US court being friendly to such a case. The greatest example of board negligence in this industry (that I can think of) in recent years would be when Hewlett-Pa…

It is actually quite common.

Here is a list of hundreds of such open lawsuits:

http://shareholdersfoundation.com/content/new-cases

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#643

Post by webXL »

> Many of these institutions of higher education are entirely or partially funded with taxpayer money.

This is a tell. I should have seen it coming. Another "you didn't build the ROADS!" guilt trip. As if a big part of the rationale behind all government-funded activities (wealth redistribution) was to promote the importance and preservation of the state, not what the citizens couldn't do for themselves. The same goes for the "freedom isn't free" bullshit. A "security" argument could have just as easily been substituted for the "education" argument. Citizens all around the world are paying double for this self-aggrandizing propaganda, some with a mountain of subsidized student loans, others with their lives.

The fundamental goals of government (that I think that most people could get on board with) are to provide law and order, and if it has the resources, promote the general welfare. If the welfare is being promoted and increasing by other means, why do we need the state to continue that role? The pie is growing in the form of a piece of technology that is improving your life, and the private sector doing more, more efficiently. Just because the guy next door struck it rich in some risky investment or startup doesn't mean you were made worse off or will be made worse off. The sooner we can stop flirting with that flawed, quick-fix socialist thinking, the better off we'll all be.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#644

Post by threeseed »

qznc wrote: post #526
simonh wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The fix can certainly involve appealing to morals and human responsibility... Are you really suggesting the management and board of every major company in the world should meet to decide how much tax they should choose to pay each year? Even if they did, where should they choose to pay it? Should Apple Pay more tax in China where the phones are assembled? In America where they are designed? In the countries where th…

My (ultra-simplistic) idea would to only tax land and VAT. Abolish all other taxes. Unfortunately, governments like fine-grained taxes because it gives them the illusion of control.

Your ultra simplistic idea has been tried before to some extent. It doesn't work.

VAT is a trivial tax to avoid since it involves the business letting the tax department know how much tax they collected. So what happens is that they under report either (a) by flat out lying or (b) doing more business in cash or through a barter system.

Also it is incredibly regressive rewarding the rich (who are generally hoarding money not spending) and punishing the poor (who spend a larger portion of their wealth on consumable spending which is subject to VAT).

That's why many countries have a VAT but none of them solely rely on it.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#645

Post by jmalicki »

tskaiser wrote: post #544
pavlov wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>... if those tax reduction schemes are legal many companies are legally bound by their stock holders to exploit them, or else be found negligent in their duties. That's not the case. There is no way a company's management could be sued for "gross negligence in tax planning". If shareholders are unhappy about this issue, their recourse is the same one that's always available to them: elect a new Board of Directors an…

I admit to be completely out of my depth, but my understanding is that it is a fiduciary duty of the directors to act in the best interest of the shareholders. Tax planning is a huge part of profit and thus shareholder value, so wouldn't such "gross negligence" represent a breach of fiduciary duty?

In Seinfeld v. Slager (2012) the Delaware Chancery Court rejected the notion that the directors have a fiduciary duty to minimize taxes.

https://www.delawarelitigation.com/2012/07/articles/chancery...

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#646

Post by mstade »

chii wrote: post #469
mstade wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I run a small company as well, and taxes are a damn maze. I just checked the tax authorities website in this country, and there are no less than 121 different tax-exempt health activities – things my company can pay for me, without having to also pay taxes. For most other things, there's sales tax (possibly other kinds of tax too, but let's limit it ourselves for brevity) that comes in at no less than three dif…

an alternative (which i m not sure is better, but...) is to have absolutely zero tax across the board. Then every possible service any entity requires is paid for in a user pays system.

I personally don’t believe this works, and that there are plenty of things history can teach us of what can work in a decentralized and presumably privatized sector, and what must remain in a public (albeit not necessarily centralized) sector. I don’t think taxes are inherently bad, but I think there’s something to be said for reducing the distance between paying the money and seeing (even if not necessarily receiving) the benefits of doing so. I think there’s a balance to be had, but I don’t think we get there with the kind of complex tax systems we have in most(?) countries today.

I don’t know what such a system would look like. I just know that when Netflix came around and made streaming easier than piracy, for a reasonable amount of money, I jumped on board and never looked back. It’s a flawed analogy I know, but there’s something to be said for just making things dead pan simple and reasonable. There’ll still be people and companies trying their best to avoid taxes, but if we can reduce them juicy margins enough, maybe at some point it just isn’t worth the hassle...

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#647

Post by xapata »

aembleton wrote: post #324
xapata wrote: post #271

Income tax is hard to collect. Sales tax is regressive. Solution: sales tax with lump-sum redistribution to make it progressive. Forget income tax.

But then you just buy from overseas. Or if you have many land-borders like Germany, you just drive across a border.

Import tariffs are possible, set to equal the sales tax. Enforcement for large corporations will be relatively easy. I'm not worried about individuals.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#648

Post by cconstantin »

valuearb wrote: post #399
ehllo wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this video from the HMRC.gov.uk helps you to understand why evading tax is bad and it is better for all to pay the full tax ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3_VwZ-Cmac

Apple pays the full tax. It pays huge amounts of taxes in Germany.

Well, that's not true: https://projekte.sueddeutsche.de/paradisepapers/politik/dear...

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#649

Post by pavlov »

jmalicki wrote: post #642
pavlov wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suing directors for negligence is not easy at all. It's hard to imagine a shareholder lawsuit that basically says: "As a director you didn't guide management to move operations to Jersey, so we want you to pay us $100 million"... It's even harder to imagine a US court being friendly to such a case. The greatest example of board negligence in this industry (that I can think of) in recent years would be when Hewlett-Pa…

It is actually quite common. Here is a list of hundreds of such open lawsuits: http://shareholdersfoundation.com/content/new-cases

Yes, shareholder lawsuits are common. But it's the company that pays, not directors.

HP actually paid $100 million in such a lawsuit for the Apotheker/Autonomy flop:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-hp-classaction-pggm/hp-pay...

The 2010 Board of Directors who created and permitted the $8.8 billion loss paid nothing. They kept their compensation, and most stayed on the board.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#650

Post by libertyEQ »

culturalzero wrote: post #636
apendleton wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're acting like laws are an unmoving fundamental property of the universe. In reality these very companies have reshaped the laws to their own advantage. Companies that lobby on tax policy demonstrably pay lower taxes; see e.g., https://sunlightfoundation.com/2012/04/16/lobby-more-pay-les...

I wonder how many of these comments are made by Apple's legal or PR team posing as normal people... Certainly they have the reach and resources for this kind of thing too. Rarely do we get to have a real public discussion on such topics without adulteration by these parties with personal motivations and associated power.

Your comment basically breaks HN guidelines by calling into question the motivations of all commenters that disagree with you. Some of us simply believe that taxing corporations makes little sense because companies set their pricing with applicable taxes in mind. Ultimately, only people pay taxes, so only people that have not fully considered the implications believe they are "sticking it to the man," when in reality the government is abstracting the cost of these taxes on the people.

It's simply a consumption tax that people do not realize they are paying because it is built into the products citizens are buying.

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