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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#641

Post by odbol »

ForHackernews wrote: post #378
avn2109 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.

> I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Corporate citizens have an obligation to obey the laws of the jurisdictions in which they operate. If they find the laws unacceptable, they should lobby to have them changed.

Let's also acknowledge that it's not just Uber the company skirting the law, it's also the millions of people who use their service. The people have spoken with their dollars instead of their votes.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#642

Post by fjdlwlv »

Godel_unicode wrote: post #575
ceejayoz wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obstruction of justice and interfering with police duties are crimes in plenty of jurisdictions. I'm not sure Waze is a good comparison - your behavior around knowing where a police car was sighted is to comply better with the law, so it'd be hard to argue it's obstruction of justice.

I think that Waze is a great comparison. There's an app which is explicitly used to find and avoid police in order to flaut the law. The main difference in my view is that Waze is individual people doing this, which we approve of, conversely Uber is a corporation many dislike. In situations like this it's important to acknowledge bias and try to abstract to the general case and reason about that.

Waze users are following the law when they get near Police officers. Uber users are continuing illegal behavior but obstructing police visibility. Uber's behavior is more like radar jamming or putting up a barrier in front of police.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#643

Post by odbol »

nohugsneeded wrote: post #632
avehn wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws are in place to benefit those in power not "all of society," as anyone who does not benefit from them can attest to. And I agree, corporations cannot be allowed to change the laws to suit them.

well, corporations can't change laws. They can only lobby. And laws are passed by the majority to benefit a majority, that's how a democracy works.

If only we lived in an actual democracy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tu32CCA_Ig

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#644

Post by NotSammyHagar »

adamsea wrote: post #118
HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

The article describes deliberate behavior by Uber to circumvent the law of the land. You might not like the law, but if you believe in the principle of rule of law, then, you should not be OK with this. Otherwise, there's no reason for other companies to, say, pollute the water supply, dump smog into the air, deliver dangerously unsafe foodstuffs or products to consumers, i.e., break the law.

I disagree that this is a great thing. I want to see reasonable behavior. I don't appreciate when businesses are basically out there to cheat me by any means they can conceive (offering me a different price than that guy beside me because they captured the mac address on my phone when I went into a fancy store, say).

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#645

Post by raattgift »

tzs wrote: post #340
liuhenry wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CC processing agreements don't normally have any such restriction - the only information that absolutely can't be stored is the CVV/CVC number. If you handle CC information, you are subject to security standards auditing (called PCI compliance - like encryption at rest, etc.), but the BIN number and last 4 digits are not considered privileged information. I'm also not aware of any restrictions on how you want to use…

Another good use for BIN information is justifying tax decisions. A little while back the VAT rules in the EU changed for online merchants. Before, you collected VAT based on your location. After, you collected VAT based on the buyer's location. Each country implemented a thing called VAT MOSS, and you can register with a country's tax authority to use their VAT MOSS system. You only have to do this in one country. O…

I wonder how this will work for the UK post-Brexit. Do you have any educated guesses?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#646

Post by fjdlwlv »

danielweber wrote: post #413
pokemon-trainer wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are in Libertarian La-La Land to call what Uber did "treating users differently based on its interests and its interpretation of the law". As Volkswagen discovered, in the United States this is called "criminal conspiracy" and "obstruction of justice."

There's a legal requirement to comply to emissions laws. Is there a legal requirement to make it easy for cops to use your service? Are they a protected class? If I didn't want to sell donuts to the cops, I sure wouldn't tell them it's because they are cops. I would just be mysteriously out of donuts every time they come in.

There is a legal requirement to not operate an illegal taxi service.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#647

Post by odbol »

codedokode wrote: post #623
aantix wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber is fighting the man, in effort to capture $$$/market. That's their market. A business makes money? As much as you wouldn't like to admit, they've broken through a market that was once monopolized and the cities had zero interest in doing anything about it. You now have superior car ride services in part for the work they've done in the market. They have raised the bar.

But their competitors who comply with the law are losing now.

Exactly the point: the law has ceased to serve the people and has become irrelevant. It's on the government to change it in order for society to progress, not hold us back.

Remember, people are using Uber. Citizens. Voters. They are voting with their dollar for the superior product. The government's role has become obsolete in the transaction.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#648

Post by odbol »

blackguardx wrote: post #550
jessaustin wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That example is supposed to inspire us to respect the law more ? You need more practice at this rhetoric thing...

I didn't say you had to respect it. Unjust laws should be changed. There is a process for that. It is fundamentally unfair to have one segment of society (tech workers) have a different set of rules than the rest. Do you disagree?

The process doesn't work as well as you think it does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tu32CCA_Ig

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#649

Post by odbol »

nemacol wrote: post #100
lacampbell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

You can vote, run for office, petition, volunteer, protest,etc to the local, state, and federal government to have policies that reflect your values. The only thing you can do with Uber is use it or not. Maybe you could write Uber a letter. You have a say in government - that is its stated goal and purpose. Of the people for the people.

You don't really have a say in the US, at least. Laws pass 30% of the time, whether the voters love it or hate it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tu32CCA_Ig

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#650

Post by odbol »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #505
karzeem wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When given a choice, drivers stampeded from yellow cabs to Uber. Riders stampeded from yellow cabs to Uber. It's clear which one most parties prefer. And that suggests that all those government "services" around the provision of taxi service are valued at or below 0 by most people.

It's not an argument. Getting people to "stampede" to you is trivial - just drop the prices well below market average, and the herd will quickly follow, regardless of whether or not your service is actually better. Doing that is difficult (that's the point of competition), but becomes much easier if you can blatantly break the law and get away with it.

Come on, there's no way you can say taxis are superior to a frickin button that you press to instantly get a car. Even if the prices were the same, I'm pretty sure most people would still choose Uber.
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