This article says it's talking about a universal basic income, and makes the usual point that a completely universal, no-strings-attached income is simple to administer, doesn't have poverty traps, etc. And then, towards the end where it starts looking at numbers, it starts saying things like > But by excluding 45 million retirees who already receive a basic income through Social Security, the cost falls to $2.7 tril…
WE NEED TO LOWER THE COST OF LIVING Its unacceptable that food in the US is 2x the cost of that of china, for instance. http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resul...
A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing
641–650 of 840 posts
Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing
#642I really don't understand how a 'basic' income is supposed to work. What if I spend my basic income on drugs and hookers? are you willing to let me starve? what about my kids? If not, then the basic income can't actually replace the existing social programs. If nobody need to work, then if employers want employees, they have to pay more to get them, which makes prices rise, which makes your 'basic' income insufficien…
Its like the Alaska Permanent Fund[1], but with a broader -- and by design growing with the economy -- revenue base.
> What if I spend my basic income on drugs and hookers? are you willing to let me starve? what about my kids? If not, then the basic income can't actually replace the existing social programs.
Sure, it can still replace existing social benefit programs. For your kids, well, we already have provisions for taking children from the care of parents that abuse or fail to provide for them, and putting them in the care of the State with the parent responsible for support costs; allowing either redirecting the children's basic income from the parent to the new support provider (in a system where children have basic income) or diverting some defined portion the parent's basic income (in a system where children do not get allotted their own BI) to pay support costs is quite natural; this doesn't create an additional social benefit program.
As for you, some BI supporters would let you starve. Others might support having transitional food/shelter programs (which would be an additional short-term benefit program) available to avoid people falling through the cracks, but make the beneficiary responsible for the cost (possibly diverting some share of future BI payments until that debt was paid).
> If nobody need to work, then if employers want employees, they have to pay more to get them, which makes prices rise, which makes your 'basic' income insufficient again.
Under realistic assumptions about elasticity, Basic Income would have some effect on accelerating price inflation of goods demanded at the low end of the income distribution, which would mean that the quality of life any level of UBI could sustain with no outside income would be somewhat less than one would expect with the same amount of income before the UBI became available. But overall, those receiving the UBI would be able to afford more than without it.
Further, UBI can cut employer costs (while it reduces economic duress to work, it also reduces the need for a minimum wage and many UBI proposals have it replace the minimum wage; it also means bad-fit employees will have less resistance to moving on, and that people will generally have more freedom to seek optimum job fits -- which are good for workers, but also most productive for employers.)
And most people don't just work enough to meet basic necessities if they are capable of getting more, so most people able to do economically useful work probably would even with a UBI that met basic needs -- people like luxuries.
Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing
#643Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink which has not been reproduced in humans.
It has not been reproduced because society collapses every last time we attempt to get anywhere near it. See socialism. Chavez made all these same promises for free stuff, etc. It didn't work. It never works. Venezuela is now beyond doomed and are weeks if not days from total devastation. Reproducing the 1972 study in a field environment on humans would take too long, but I'm confident that if you had a similar utopi…
We've had societies that had infinite food and water provided to them in a limited space?
>pure Venezuelan chaos
Pure hyperbolic nonsense.
Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing
#644I really don't understand how a 'basic' income is supposed to work. What if I spend my basic income on drugs and hookers? are you willing to let me starve? what about my kids? If not, then the basic income can't actually replace the existing social programs. If nobody need to work, then if employers want employees, they have to pay more to get them, which makes prices rise, which makes your 'basic' income insufficien…
My guess is UBI is going to help very few people, most people's troubles are going to continue anyways. Unless you are seriously ill, or physically disabled, or stuck in warzone Africa you need to accept the fact you are responsible for yourself. In fact merely acknowledging this fact is likely to do more to fix your problems can free cash from the government.
If and when UBI happens, Rich won't need it, those middle class people with some responsibility will get some marginal upgrade on their income. Most people with no responsibility will spend it away on things they don't as always. They will continue to blame rich people for their problems, and consider rich people as evil for not endlessly doling out free cash for their parties.
Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing
#645Earlier quoted context omitted.
Deflation in the entire economy is bad. Deflation in asset is ok as long as there are more cash offsetting the asset deflation. Basic income is one way to get more cash into the economy.
Wouldn't across-the-board efficiency gains look like across-the-board deflation? That is, wouldn't automation in and of itself cause hoarding? Why buy a TV this year if the one next year will be better and cheaper? Also, hoarding would theoretically only be a problem for the middle and upper classes since the working classes can't afford to save. But the middle and upper classes already hoard, more or less, when they…
Yes, increased productivity and efficiency are deflational in nature. You can create N more things now with the same cost. The extra N things push price down if the amount of money in the system stays the same. That's why central banks inject more money into the system to "soak" up the extra economic activities, to maintain a constant and slightly upper price pressure.
When people see the price is not decreasing despite increased efficiency, they will spend the money since it worth less tomorrow.
Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing
#646This article says it's talking about a universal basic income, and makes the usual point that a completely universal, no-strings-attached income is simple to administer, doesn't have poverty traps, etc. And then, towards the end where it starts looking at numbers, it starts saying things like > But by excluding 45 million retirees who already receive a basic income through Social Security, the cost falls to $2.7 tril…
Taxes would go up. But previously blocked productivity would be released, and socially desirable but marginal services would become viable.
Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing
#647Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you followed recent headlines, tax on sugary drinks has been a subject in Democratic primaries. Even though high-fructose corn syrup has been linked to obesity, diabetes and myriad of other problems related to that, some members of liberal community oppose a consumption tax on sugary drinks on the basis that it hits lower-income families disproportionally http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Tax-VOX/2016/0430/Bernie-…
Why is the new tax needed? What are we trying to fund that other taxes don't already cover? Don't we (the government) subsidize HFCS? Wouldn't not doing that raise the prices and not require a tax then? I will oppose a 'sugar' tax because I don't think the government should be deciding what foods I consume, especially when I think taxes should be for raising money. I am aware it's not the full picture and I haven't e…
Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing
#648This article says it's talking about a universal basic income, and makes the usual point that a completely universal, no-strings-attached income is simple to administer, doesn't have poverty traps, etc. And then, towards the end where it starts looking at numbers, it starts saying things like > But by excluding 45 million retirees who already receive a basic income through Social Security, the cost falls to $2.7 tril…
To make it work you'd have to take whatever the amount is and extract it from all other government benefit programs. You get $700 / month from the government for basic income. Your social security, welfare, unemployment, disability, etc is reduced by $700 / month. Reducing all of those programs by the first $700 would effectively gut each of them enough to finally make some reforms without inducing panic in everyone…
Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing
#649Earlier quoted context omitted.
Poster is crazy to think liberals will EVER support a hugely regressive tax scheme. Consumption taxes destroy the middle class by acting as vehicle to transport wealth from the middle to the ultrawealthy, which makes it surprising that people continue to suggest it. Now perhaps a consumption tax combined with a large capital gains tax and inheritance tax -- to keep taxes going in the oligarchs economy AND the regular…
>Poster is crazy to think liberals will EVER support a hugely regressive tax scheme. I just want to make one glib comment here about liberals and regressive taxes. The Northeast is generally thought of as the most liberal part of America (aside from coastal California maybe). So why is it that I've seen far more toll roads and bridges there than in any "red state"? I think some liberals make some good points about re…
Because the Northeast was also the most heavily developed area of the country before the Interstate Highway System came about with a funding system that made non-toll roads the norm for new limited-access highways (funding rules which have since changed, weakening the financial incentive against new toll roads.) Modern political orientation has little to do with it: outside the Northeast, the people trying to introduce toll roads where they haven't been in the past are conservatives, the people opposing them are liberals.
Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing
#650This article says it's talking about a universal basic income, and makes the usual point that a completely universal, no-strings-attached income is simple to administer, doesn't have poverty traps, etc. And then, towards the end where it starts looking at numbers, it starts saying things like > But by excluding 45 million retirees who already receive a basic income through Social Security, the cost falls to $2.7 tril…
WE NEED TO LOWER THE COST OF LIVING Its unacceptable that food in the US is 2x the cost of that of china, for instance. http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resul...