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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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631–640 of 644 posts

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#631

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

This comment is guilty of the lump of labor fallacy. There is not a fixed quantity of jobs. The job market is dynamic and can generate jobs. One person getting a job does not mean another losing one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

I think you can criticize targeted visa programs without committing the lump of labor fallacy. The reason is that very targeted types of migration such as high tech visas can cause market distortions relative to other fields.

For instance, every new developer probably leads to employment for baristas, brick layers, dermatologists, mortgage brokers, real estate agents, and divorce lawyers. Because developers and engineers in general tend to generate wealth rather than redistribute it, this is especially true.

Here's the thing, if you create a visa program to allow easy migration for developers, but not for all those other professions (or you create a regulatory state that makes it very difficult for migrants to join those fields), what you create is a market distortion. Because new economic activities are available without the competition from the newly arrived migrants, those with existing work and residency rights will have an incentive to avoid engineering and go into other fields. Even if people aren't specifically displaced, even if pay rises a bit, better prospects in other fields may ensure that the existing workforce never goes into software development or engineering in the first place (i.e., someone who would have done so will now instead go into dentistry or tax law).

This, I think, is what we've seen - people who have the right to live and work in the US at the time when they are choosing a career path are shunning these fields. Now, if migration were more general, it wouldn't do as much harm to developers, because while there would be more competition, it would be spread evenly across all fields, not just software.

Think of it this way - suppose we allowed farmers to come to the US, but only if they grow lemons. If you switch your crop, you must leave, because there's a shortage of lemon growers. This would hurt likely harm existing lemon farmers, and you'd expect them to switch to a different crop (probably avocados, where they don't have to compete on price with the suddenly larger and captive population of lemon growers). There might seem to be a shortage of lemons, prices of lemons might still go up, but until they reflect the opportunity cost (what you could get growing avocados), people with the choice won't grow lemons. In this case, the "come here if you agree to grow lemons" visa program would be creating a market distortion that is preventing the lemon market from "clearing".

This is also why a lot of people who have no objection to general skilled immigration strongly oppose such specific tinkering with employment levels, and why a lot of people feel that there really is no evidence of a developer or engineer shortage when you consider the opportunity cost of becoming a developer for people who are free to choose a profession.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for a Bay Area based company, but I work remotely in Dallas, TX and I can assure you that this problem isn't unique to the Bay Area. It's just that the numbers skew lower. Here in Dallas, many employers scoff at paying more than $80K/year for a senior developer when they can get an H1B for $50-60K. A lot of this relates to the total capital available, as well as the lower cost of living, but the trend is the s…

Well, you get what you pay for (again, exempting professional services/staffing firms from this because they don't operate in the labor market under the same rules as individuals). If you offer $60-80k/yr, you're not going to get great developers. If the market rate is $80k and they're offering $60k for H1B developers, that's actually illegal (though unfortunately rarely enforced). But many projects don't need great…

That's an interesting take. I agree that if programming became more common place (like learning how to use Excel), a number of low skill, high salaried programming jobs would quickly disappear.

However, if that were going to happen, I feel that it would have happened already. Maybe it's because technology moves so rapidly that it forces continual disruption. Any investments and downward pressure on wages due to an increased supply of skilled labor gets effectively reset during technology shifts (like moving from mainframes -> desktop -> web -> mobile).

Having come across a lot of "average engineers", I can tell you that most of the companies they work for survive mainly because they have some type of insulation from technical disruption. Sometimes its in the form of monopolies or regulatory capture, but over time even such companies become vulnerable to the major technology shifts (like mobile).

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government defined "prevailing wage" for a level 1 software developer in San Francisco is $74,000. Does that sound like a market rate to you? http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41884... Edit: For a "web developer" the starting number is $52,000. In San Francisco. http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41884...

Yes it does. Level 1 is mean salary for entry level, and it's for the peninsula, not just SFC.

Also keep in mind that does not include benefits or equity.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#634

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

You worked at some companies that had foreign workers, I get that. Since most companies forbid employees from discussing salary with your co-workers, exactly how do you know they were getting paid less than they were worth?

Also, I don't know if you noticed, but most of the rest of the US, and the entire world as a whole, pays significantly lower salaries for software engineering than Silicon Valley, even factoring in cost of living. Yet Silicon Valley salaries have continued to climb to amazing heights. This is not because you are any better at your job today than 10 years ago. It is because there is a crisis of supply. The industry needs far more programmers today than ever before, and the LOCAL supply is severely constrained. It is hard to even get people from other parts of the US to move to the bay area, let alone from other countries.

Is the H1B exploitable? Yes, but that's because of anti-worker government policies. If the US offered skilled workers a transferrable Visa valid for a fixed (extendable if you can prove you still have solid income in your field), workers would have the power to leave a bad job.

As for ghettos, I don't even know what to say to you. The housing market in the bay is so utterly broken, and there are so few real walkable neighborhoods with a sense of community, you would prefer that recent immigrants what, scatter themselves across the bay instead of striving to at least maintain some sense of continuity in their life? If you want to improve things, fight for local city governments to stop their idiotic policies against infill development and public services.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#635
post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is already illegal to pay H1B visa holders less than "the actual or prevailing wage for your occupation, whichever is higher." http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupatio... Thus, when I hear people complain of companies who hire H1Bs only because they want to pay them less, I always want to ask, "why haven't you reported them?" Either they don't actually know that the companies are exclusively pa…

When I hear people retort that "companies aren't allowed to do that", I always want to say: "Did you try a simple web-search to find out how they do it anyway?" For example, there are loopholes in both salary-calculation and also in terms of crafting hideously specific (and not entirely honest) requirements and then claiming nobody local can fill them.

I had this boss in Brazil that also own some business in Florida - when he wants to hire some H1B from Brazil he just adds "fluent in Portuguese" to the job description.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Letting people take the jobs that best fit them, the world over, means more jobs are better done sooner, which means more resources available to do things like retrain. But we're not talking about the world over. Allowing unlimited immigration is good for the immigrants but bad for the existing citizens. And you're running straight into equality fallacy. Equality is not an unambiguous good. When most people are poo…

The reasoning you quoted has nothing to do with equality. Don't make things up just because you find them easier to argue against. The reasoning was: If you force jobs to be filled by people who are not as good at them, we collectively get less work done. Assuming that work tends to be useful, that means we collectively have fewer resources available.

> The reasoning was: If you force jobs to be filled by people who are not as good at them, we collectively get less work done. Assuming that work tends to be useful, that means we collectively have fewer resources available.

Now you're changing your argument. The people who are the "best fit" for a job aren't necessarily better at it. They may be worse at it but willing to work for less money. Which is where equality enters into it: You're making the assumption that it's better to transfer that money from the workers to producers or customers. But for something that done at scale leads to the destruction of the middle class, that assumption is false.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#637
Uh No.

It's not possible but the only way to be sure is to "clone" the US into a NON H1B from 1988 and let that evolve to 2014.

The probable result would have been an increase in wages (in real terms) along with a LOT less population growth in Silicon Valley.

No one wants to come out and say it (but I will and do so) but we are changing on an almost DAILY basis the racial composition (O.K. I am going to get flamed as a racist but so be it) the US IT (which includes software engineering workforce) from mostly caucasian Americans to Indians.

WORSE

Is that the apartment rents are at $3K+ per month because 10+ Indians (not being sarcastic) are stuffed into 1BR apartments.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a software engineer and green card holder from Brazil and there is nothing I want more than to see many of my friends who work in Brazil have the opportunity to come here to work in a great industry. That being said, both you and the anon person you replied to are right about the situation. The position you came to fill is a relatively rare skill here in the US and it helps the US to bring in talent from abroad,…

> salaries rise to the levels enjoyed by doctors and lawyers The BLS says the median salary for a lawyer is $112k. Median salary for a software developer is $93k. The $19k difference is not that big when you consider that lawyers have a higher startup cost and higher ongoing cost - wardrobe, dry cleaning, law school tuition + 3 years' opportunity cost. Plus law firms can be a grind, far more than soft eng gigs.

The BLS has been thoroughly discredited. $93K isn't that impressive not when a cop or fireman starts off at $100K in Silicon Valley WITHOUT going to college.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#639
This will NEVER happen.

Let's assume for arguments sake that these H1Bs are truly the "best and brightest"

WELL

Then they SHOULD be paid like the best and brightest.

Using approximate numbers, let's say that the average salary for a software engineer is $100K.

O.K.

Have the employer pay a MINIMUM of 125% of that to an H1B. The H1B gets $125K a year which only seams reasonable as the H1B "obviously" is SO BRIGHT to command a HIGHER salary.

WAIT, WAIT

That WILL NOT happen because this is all ABOUT COST.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a software engineer and green card holder from Brazil and there is nothing I want more than to see many of my friends who work in Brazil have the opportunity to come here to work in a great industry. That being said, both you and the anon person you replied to are right about the situation. The position you came to fill is a relatively rare skill here in the US and it helps the US to bring in talent from abroad,…

It is already illegal to pay H1B visa holders less than "the actual or prevailing wage for your occupation, whichever is higher." http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupatio... Thus, when I hear people complain of companies who hire H1Bs only because they want to pay them less, I always want to ask, "why haven't you reported them?" Either they don't actually know that the companies are exclusively pa…

Nope

The prevailing wage is LOWER than the average wage.

YOUR lawyer writes the job requirement such that you can get an H1B for under $50K a year in Silicon Valley

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