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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#631

Post by smallstepforman »

dgellow wrote: post #413
whazor wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany it might be easier to open a company remotely via Estonia

No, it’s generally a pretty terrible idea. Germany applies taxes based on the place where a company is managed. If you live in Germany and remotely manage your Estonian company then you’re expected to pay your corporate and other company taxes in Germany. The overhead of managing the international situation is more complicated than opening a company in Germany to be honest

This is insane. So I need to work 5 years on site in Germany as a contractor being paid by foreign parent company, why should the company be liable to be registered and pay taxes in germany. Eg Microsoft sends tech to fix Azure system fir Mercedes.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#632

Post by altairprime »

Zak wrote: post #274
rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

> A company that starts with nothing wouldn't be a GmbH (limited liability company), it would be a GoH (company without liability), and there's a good reason why those don't exist... Those do exist in other countries. An LLC in the USA does not generally need to have a certain amount of assets. Such a company is more or less without liability until it has some assets; the worst case for its owners when it comes to a…

To clarify a point here, U.S. entrepreneurs (and unfortunately our union committees as well) find that sort of thing tolerable; the larger majority by an order of magnitude, U.S. consumers that aren’t currently (or planning to be) invested in a business, tend to be strongly opposed once they understand the outcomes.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#634

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

jobs_throwaway wrote: post #428
paulsutter wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While extreme cases are the easiest to imagine, in real life the plaintiff almost always argues to pierce the veil and the defendant always argues the opposite, and both sides earnestly believe that they are right.

And in real life piercing the veil is extremely exceptional

It's so exceptional in the UK you can run a series of fraudulent businesses which are incorporated, "buy" services, don't pay for them, then declare themselves insolvent, rinse and repeat, and there's a fair chance you'll get away with it.

It's called phoenixing. There are good few bans for it every year, but almost no convictions for fraud.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#635

Post by nradov »

t0mas88 wrote: post #611
nradov wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company collapses while having more liabilities than assets then that's fine. No one is being forced to extend any credit to them.

That's the American viewpoint, right of the strongest, sue if they wronged you. European systems typically have a different philosophy where the counterparties are more protected. It's expressed in stronger consumer protection laws, but also these German things where you can't start a GmbH/LLC with zero capital and wish the counterparties good luck suing you if you never pay them.

You're missing the point. Strong or weak has nothing to do with it. If you want to be protected then don't do business with undercapitalized counterparties. Everyone can make their own decision on acceptable level of financial risk. It's stupid for governments to dictate this.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#636

Post by glad_duck »

pwinnski wrote: post #425
keiferski wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah most US companies have return policies of 30 days or more, no questions asked.

The word "most" is doing a lot here. Europe guarantees consumer rights by law, while the US relies on companies adopting the practices voluntarily. Most do, but larger companies more universally than smaller, and it's by no means universal.

Don't buy if you don't like company policy, no need to have a law. There is plenty of choice in the US. Some companies even offer 90 days (again, no laws required).

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#637

Post by glad_duck »

lompad wrote: post #490
keiferski wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the reality for the vast majority of larger companies. Quibbling with word choice is really not a good argument.

Try canceling your NYT subscription.

So don't subscribe. It's not that hard to cancel though, yes, you need to spend some time on the phone.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#638

Post by hapless »

nradov wrote: post #610
hapless wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an important rule if you want the liability protections associated with a limited liability corporation If you just want to start a business, without any associated shell companies or liability transfers, it costs $0 and requires filing one sheet of paper. It is very easy! https://www.formulare-bfinv.de/ffw/form/display.do?%24contex...

You're missing the point. There shouldn't be any capital requirement just to get liability protections. No one is forcing counterparties to accept liabilities.

clearly german regulators and/or voters disagree, as is their right

nevertheless it is very easy to start a business, and this man is complaining about an entirely separate problem (it is difficult to create and incorporate two shell companies)

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#639

Post by irwt »

anonzzzies wrote: post #216
robtro wrote: post #65

Germany is one of the worst countries when it comes to bureaucracy nothing is fast here if you go the legal path and stay within the law (which is mostly for small people big players have different ways) and as you see everything costs a lot so if you are founding a pure online business do yourself a favor and incorporate somewhere else and if you still live in Germany look into licensing or subcontracting yourself t…

I do not know an EU or Asian country that doesn’t have a similar paperwork misery; I had a company in DE and in many others; you won’t survive in Spain as SL if you are small and follow the rules either. So literally no one does. No different in DE. We never got fined or even reprimanded. Largest fine in DE we got was for charging the wrong VAT for some items and that was not really that bad compared to all the tax b…

I don't think you've lived in many EU or Asian countries... While incorporation sucks in France, Spain, and Germany, in most North European countries, East European countries, and even in most Balkan countries, it's a breeze (when compared to Germany).

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#640

Post by inglor_cz »

One of the problems of the EU is that the largest countries (FR, DE, IT) are exactly the most ossified and bureaucratic ones, and their pro-endless-papering attitudes leak out through Brussels to the more nimble, but smaller players which find it harder to organize blocking minorities.

I find it interesting that most Germans don't seem to be aware of just how much worse their bureaucracy is than elsewhere, or even willing to defend such system as somehow optimal, even though it burns a lot of human energy and time while not even moving forward, just spinning the wheels in sand. Their refusal to even start thinking along the lines "maybe the Poles or the Balts or even the Romanians are doing something better and we should learn something from them" is very stubborn, probably stemming from surviving prejudice against the Wild East.

These days, no one can compete with China et al. by burying their own economy in endless rivers of paper. This is categorically the false way.

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