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Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

dailyprincetonian.com

631–640 of 662 posts

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#631
post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? I was referring to the 2nd page of the link you submitted earlier. You acted like there are only a few Chinese students at Princeton when they are the overwhelming majority of the graduate international student body. Did you not look at your own evidence? And brother, I don't give a shit what Princeton students have to say about the invigilation situation. That's an inmates running the asylum kind of thing. It's…

N.B.: TFA stands for “The Fucking Article”, as in RTFA: Read The Fucking Article. 1) In a root level response to The Fucking Article, which is about changes that only apply to the undergrad proctoring system, you argued: “(Self-proctored exams) may have worked back in the 1800s … but these days when half the student body is Chinese expats who need the degree to get high paying jobs back in Shanghai…why wouldn’t they…

I’ll try to simplify my argument for you.

Most universities, certainly in the top 50 globally, export a significant share of their student population because a significant share of their student population consists of international students. Those students return home once they obtain their degrees. Princeton’s overall share of international students is around 25%.

2nd, a huge proportion of students in general at universities, including Ivy League unis, are not from wealthy families. This can be contrasted to the the 19th century demographic, which basically consisted of only individuals from wealthy families.

Today, most students are there to get a degree from a prestigious institution so they can get a good job with upward mobility potential. Again, contrast with the 19th century, for which this policy was designed.

Having done an LLB at a top 40 law school globally, I can tell you that the pressure on international students is immense due to visa implications, parental pressures, and poor options compared to native students if they fail. International students cheat, as do native students, and it is rational from a purely economic standpoint for them to do so. In my experience, international students are more likely to cheat than natives, but once cheating is occurring it is rational for all students to cheat due to the resultant grade inflation.

My argument is mostly that because of how demographics at university have changed over the past 150 years, a university education is a means to an end, and it's really just getting a piece of paper (ideally from a prestigious institution) for most students. International students in particular drive the cheating and make it highly rational for all students to cheat, but even if universities did not enroll overseas students, cheating would still be pervasive simply because the demographics and purposes of university have changed since 1850. I hope you can understand the argument.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#632
post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a bizarre story and a "lecturer". Can you say more now, like what subject was he/she was teaching.

My PhD was in mechanical engineering. I don't want to get more specific than that on the subject in case it identifies the lecturer. I guess I used the phrase "lecturer" to distinguish him from my PhD advisor.

Thanks for replying anyway. BTW by quoting "lecturer" I meant his/her behavior was in dissonance of his/her role

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#633
post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once was accused and brought before the honor counsel for a really stupid innocent mistake. Basically it was a history worksheet requiring written paragraph answers and I swapped around answers under the wrong questions so the teacher thought I cheated. It was a careless mistake I made because I had lost the original worksheet and was working off a loose leaf copy in the cafeteria at the last minute but it made it…

What is this honour council I've heard in a few comments? I thought Princeton was unique in having and honour system as opposed to strict academic integrity rules.

Many US universities and some private schools had honor councils made up of students and faculty that would hear cheating cases

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once was accused and brought before the honor counsel for a really stupid innocent mistake. Basically it was a history worksheet requiring written paragraph answers and I swapped around answers under the wrong questions so the teacher thought I cheated. It was a careless mistake I made because I had lost the original worksheet and was working off a loose leaf copy in the cafeteria at the last minute but it made it…

That seems like it should be enough to suspect you but not enough to “convict.” Your explanation makes as much sense as cheating.

I guess so but was young and having to defend yourself before a committee that can expel you can be intimidating so there are many ways I could have flubbed the explanation and made myself suspicious. I do hope the standard is something like beyond a reasonable doubt.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Zero tolerance" policies like that are much more prone to the kind of excessive leniency in application that's described, precisely because the penalty for being found to have cheated is so very high. In those cases, the academic integrity committee is much more likely to demand a very high standard of proof of cheating, and it can ironically result in more people getting away with it again and again, where, in a sy…

You are equating “leniency” and “standard of proof” which goes against my every sense of justice. You either did it or you didn’t. There is no small crime, they are all the same. That is honor- you have it or you don’t. There is no “you were accused, but it’s minor so we’ll have to be more sure than usual.” That would be as ridiculous as saying “you were accused, and it’s major, so if there’s any suspicion at all, yo…

You're looking at it in much too black-and-white a manner.

First of all, there's a difference between cheating on the big final exam that determines 40% of your course grade, and cheating on a quiz in week 3. A zero-tolerance policy has to make a decision: does the latter count as cheating? Is that really worth expelling a student over? A more nuanced policy can give that student a more nuanced punishment that may deter them from escalating their cheating—essentially, "scare them straight".

Second of all, there are absolutely degrees of cheating. For one, there's simple volume: did you cheat on one question, or all of them? For another, there's gray areas like "it was an open-book test, but I had also scribbled down some extra notes in the book" or "yes, I had my phone out in the test, but genuinely I was just responding to my parent/significant other/best friend who was having a meltdown". Or even "I had my phone in my bag, which I wasn't supposed to, but I never looked at it during the test; I just forgot to hand it in when I entered".

Your brand of "justice" would see many people who could absolutely be persuaded or shamed into good behavior, as well as actual innocents, lose the chance to ever get a decent education, and thus a decent job. (Particularly given the way the economics of it are going today—if you get expelled, those student loans don't go away, so how are you ever going to afford another university?)

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#636
post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think these complex institutions can be viewed as having a uniform ideology. Yes, any university understands that many (most?) of their students are simply there for a diploma that opens up opportunities, and the parts of an institution that view it as a business are going to want to maintain the value of that product. But the faculty of a university isn't typically in it for the money--in most fields you can…

> some of the most profitable students are. Do you think a Saudi prince need a diploma to open up opportunities? Why would a Saudi prince be a more profitable student? The only difference between him and most of the other students as far as money is concerned is that his family can afford to pay the grossly inflated tuition out of pocket instead of having to get financial aid. But the money is the same in either case…

Donations.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#637

You mean currently exams aren't proctored?! I went to the University of Toronto and can't recall a single exam which wasn't.

It's weird, right? The US is just hands down strange in some regards to little procedural things that are important but also easy to implement, and yet for whatever reason don't do and make a big deal over it when it's a complete non-affaire in other countries. Like voter ID. It's not some partisan issue. None of the political parties are fighting Elections Canada over it and its been around my whole life. Its just n…

It is a big deal in the US because the US has never had strong identity document requirements for nearly anything until relatively recently, and has been adopting such requirements piecemeal often without doing anything to help people obtain strong identity documents.

There are around 2-3 million adult citizens here without any government issued photo ID, and around 30 more million have government issued photo ID that is expired or does not have their correct name or address.

As more things have started to require current government issued photo ID the requirements to get such ID have been tightened. You typically need a certified copy of your birth certificate, but getting a certified copy of a birth certificate typically requires having a current government issued photo ID.

There are alternate ways to prove identity that rely on other documents and/or getting people with ID to swear that they know you and know you were born here and are who you say you are which can be used to get the certified birth certificate.

Those other documents are often hard to track down, for example some states accept school records as supporting evidence but often those records are not centralized, so you have to go the school district for them. All in all it can take significant time and money to gather all the documents needed, which is a serious problem for many of those without ID.

In the specific case of voting there are around 20 million voting-age citizens without current government issued photo ID and who would have trouble getting such ID.

If we decide we need to switch to checking government issued photo ID at the polls, as opposed to the current system where checks are done when you first register and accept secondary means of proof, the right way to do it is to first make it so those millions of citizens who would have serious trouble getting such an ID are able to actually get ID without hardship.

Only after that is done, so the switch will not disenfranchise tens of millions, start requiring such ID at the polls. Voter fraud under the current system in the US is negligible, so there is no need to rush this.

The current push by one party to try to rush it is because a majority of the people who would be disenfranchised are people who tend to favor the other party. That's why it is controversial.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested in discussion around "high trust societies" and I look for clues because I want to live in one. Here is just an example of one: Moving from Brooklyn to a small surbuban town: - very few lock their bikes at the local schools, or "town center". Bikes aren't stolen and kids don't worry about it. - "town center" has umbrellas out for public use, people use them and put them back. - People generally don't l…

It sounds like trust is important when people can be held accountable. And it's hard to be held accountable when you're just an anonymous person in a sea of hundreds of thousands or millions.

In my case, it's not just being held accountable. It's that people know each other and you are just stealing from your neighbor. Not many want to do that.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#639
post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no proctors is insane, seeing as I've experienced a number of people trying to cheat off of me in proctored exams (and I was not a particularly good student)

Did you go to Princeton, or similar university with a honor code?

you think universities don't all have honor codes or ethics statements

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not reasonable to expect a calculus professor to routinely decide if they want to derail someone’s entire future because, for whatever reason (a whole other discussion), they tried to cheat on an assignment. A lot of systems don’t have multiple strikes or are otherwise deeply flawed (as well as routinely shown to be ineffective). If you cheat and are caught, you are expelled. There is no sense of proportion or…

> A lot of systems don’t have multiple strikes The case of Katie Meyer at Stanford (not an academic integrity issue but a carelessly punitive disciplinary process nonetheless) shows that universities need to temper discipline with humanity and understanding, and to work for positive outcomes for all students. > honor system has relied on individual accountability, with students pledging both to refrain from academic…

>That being said, a cheating student should certainly not receive credit for the exam, as it is unearned, creates an unfair environment, undermines the assessment accuracy of course grades, and can disadvantage other students in courses with curved or grouped grade distributions.

No one disagrees with this. No one wants to encourage cheating. The question is what works and/or are there any harmful effects of current systems

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