Earlier quoted context omitted.
> as primary means of transportation and arguably more importantly as a backup means of transportation One bus route can't wear two hats. Faster, sparser routes are typically complemented by slow, meandering collector routes which provide the kind of backstop you describe. Moreover, elderly and disabled people can use paratransit [1], which exists precisely to serve people with mobility issues too severe for regular…
Around 1/5 of the US population is elderly ~1/4 by 2050, add in moderately disabled people and this isn’t a small population we are talking about. Paratransit is for a far smaller percentage of the population due to the significant expense.
Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective
631–640 of 656 posts
Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective
#632Skeptical notes based on my own experiences in Seattle (≈1148ft average per article - which might be considered high enough that the article already considers the mission for fewer bus stops a success?): Some of the routes I've taken had "express" variants that skipped many stops, yet still stopped at my usual start and exit. I never bothered waiting for them - the savings were marginal, and taking the first bus was…
• Bus crawls along behind traffic during rush hour traffic, or a long line of traffic bottlenecked by a busy stop sign
• Bus stops to load/unload, blocking traffic for a bit, with a gap opening up in front of it as a result of cars not being able to get around (e.g. the stop is just directly on the typical curb/sidewalk with one lane in that direction.)
• Bus continues, and quickly catches up to the car it was behind before, since traffic was going slower than the speed limit as a result of bottlenecks
The stop was free, in these cases.
Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective
#633Earlier quoted context omitted.
> See the word "effective". Think about the road space that a bus requires but doesn't use if it is just once per 10 minutes. Excepting the case of a dedicated bus lane, the amount of road space a bus is preventing other cars from taking up at a given time is equal to the size of the bus. Technically, it's less than that in the case of bus stops littered amongst parking. In the case of a dedicated lane, it reduces th…
I actually am citing the traffic engineering handbook, the section about computing the efficacy of bus lanes. And I'm using deliberately conservative estimates. > If there is an average of 15 passengers on the bus during the operations of the bus and there is an average of 1 driver on the bus during the operations of the bus, then it is 1/16th occupied by driver(s) No. For the bus to be viable, all 3 drivers have to…
until this moment, you were only claiming.
> the section about computing the efficacy of bus lanes
> Excepting the case of a dedicated bus lane
Not all buses require a bus lane. A bus lane is a deliberate choice that doesn't make sense in all areas and for all bus routes. It is disingenuous to reference the reduction in throughput due to a bus lane as a blanket claim that an individual bus takes away the room of 100+ cars on the road.
> you have almost 20% of the bus taken by the drivers on average
> No. For the bus to be viable, all 3 drivers have to be "virtually present" there.
Your claim is about how much of the bus is taken by drivers, which while having some correlation to cost, really doesn't have anything to do with the cost of operating the bus. An oversimplification of this is to posit a magic bus that runs 24 hours a day with 8 hours shifts by 3 drivers. That means that the drivers take up 24 person-hours of capacity on the bus. If we say they have 15 passengers on average, then the passengers take 360 person-hours of capacity on the bus. Thus, drivers take up 24 / 384 or 6.25% of the capacity.
Honestly, I never really cared enough to convince you that transit is a good thing because that feels like a fool's errand. But these weird claims and fallacies bother me. If you want to claim that a bus isn't cost effective, then great. Just cite an actually relevant metric and actually calculate it correctly.
Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective
#634Earlier quoted context omitted.
Axle weight and vehicle weight aren't the same (or even very closely correlated). A bus will weight ~3-4x more than a car, but has wider tires, and carrying far more people. As such the weight of a bus is likely similar to or lower than an equivalent number of cars.
Wider tires do not reduce axle weight. Here in Seattle, the busy roads with older lanes used for buses are obvious, because they have two deep canyons while the lane next to them is fine. In fact King County Metro has to pay millions in fines to the state because the buses are excessively heavy. No roads without bus traffic have the same type of damage.
Which is part of the reason to know that axle weight alone isn't a sufficient scale. If you connect 2 cars axle to axle, they won't start doing 8x as much damage. What matters is axle weight divided by tire width.
Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective
#635Earlier quoted context omitted.
Incidentally, London has a "Freedom Pass" (free transport for retirees), which is funded in the way you describe. Instead of TfL being forced to take the loss, they are reimbursed by local government cost of the transport. As an aside, I also take some issue with this pass being completely free to use. In my experience, people end up using it to go a single stop just because it's free, so why not -- which slows bus s…
Fare-charging for public transit has significant frictional overhead. I think in Luxembourg they just made it all free and it didn't cost much money because they didn't need to spend anything on collecting fares. The D-Ticket in Germany too: in some cities, almost everyone has a D-Ticket so the frequency of ticket checks was drastically reduced. Another counterpoint: if the bus isn't overloaded, taking an additional…
The bus has to stop, let the passenger on, and later let them off.
This affects everyone else on the bus and reduces the quality of service.
Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective
#636Earlier quoted context omitted.
>They don’t replace nearly enough cars and SUV’s to make up for the difference in fourth power of axle weight A modest bus holds 40-50 people. Most commuter traffic is single driver, single vehicle. I don't know to which power the difference in axle weight would have to be to surpass the efficiency gains of replacing 40 to 50 American sized SUVs with a city bus, but I suspect it's more than four.
At the heavy end, SUVs weigh about 3 tonnes, while at the light end buses weigh about 12, a 4x difference. 4^4 = 256. So if the claim about the fourth power is true, you'd need to replace 256 SUVs to break even on wear, which is obviously impossible. (I don't really understand how the fourth power of axel weight thing can possibly be true, though. Why would joining two vehicles together into a mega vehicle with doubl…
Doubling the weight and doubling the wheel count leaves the axle weight unchanged.
Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective
#637Earlier quoted context omitted.
> In an alternate universe, public transport is run to compete with the car, and attracts all demographics. Day-to-day operations are un-subsidised, and therefore relatively expensive. It competes on value. People use it because it's a better experience than driving. The problem with this in the US is that it's nearly impossible for the bus to be faster than a car without making the car slower on purpose, and the lat…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downs%E2%80%93Thomson_paradox Switching a car lane to a bus lane actually makes the cars in the remaining lanes move faster.
But it's especially rubbish when converting an existing lane, because the existing lane will have already allowed the demand to be high, e.g. people already built houses outside the range of mass transit and those residents are now locked in to using that road in cars, and you then remove the lane even though the demand is sticky.
Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective
#638Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That assumes a linear city, where everyone lives within a short walking distance of the same street. Isn't that the assumption you're making? That there is a single primary street that everything converges and then diverges from which is common to every bus route? Meanwhile in practice any given person standing on the You Are Here dot could want to go in any of the eight directions from where they currently are. A…
Public transit depends on the assumption that some trips are more common than others. If any given person is equally likely to go to any direction, public transit becomes too expensive to build. And it becomes impossible to make the city dense without turning the traffic into a nightmare. A typical direct bus line starts from somewhere, goes through a number of neighborhoods, reaches a major street, and follows it to…
Public transit depends on the assumption that there is enough density along a given route to justify its existence. Take a look at the NYC subway map. In the highest density boroughs (Manhattan and Brooklyn) the routes basically go from everywhere to everywhere. Even more so for the Manhattan bus map. That's what you want in a large dense city.
In smaller cities, the "build a high density core surrounded by lower density areas" model is the thing that causes more congestion, because then the core ends up as a bottleneck but people don't want to take transit to get there because it doesn't have frequent service to the areas outside the core at one of the traveler's endpoints. For those cities it's better to have medium density everywhere than try to make transit work in a city where a large proportion of the population is coming from an area with density too low to make it viable.
And if the whole "city" is low density, i.e. it's a rural small town, then it's not likely you're going to make public transit work there whatsoever. The best option there is to use mixed zoning so people so inclined can live within walking distance of shops.
> It's not a Pareto improvement, as the traffic will become worse for those who drive on that route. But it's not a huge loss for them either.
It is though? The premise to begin with is that road is already too congested and is slowing down the buses. Removing a third to half of its capacity is going to make it dramatically worse. That's what many of the proponents of bus lanes are after -- they want to force people onto the bus by snarling the cars.
They refer to this as "induced demand" by inverting the sign when what they really mean is to suppress demand for driving by making it more miserable, but don't want to call it that because it would be unpopular.
Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective
#639Earlier quoted context omitted.
Private car ownership is a better everyday solution for almost anyone who can afford it, which includes the vast majority of Americans. If buses tried to compete with cars, they would lose. The only remaining niche for the bus is as a public accommodation for the poor, disabled, and elderly, or occasionally in dense city centers. At least that’s what I think. But if you’re right, and there’s a version of bus transpor…
That can't be the whole equation. Why do so many people in London choose to ride the bus and the tube instead of taking private cars?
Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective
#640Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wider tires do not reduce axle weight. Here in Seattle, the busy roads with older lanes used for buses are obvious, because they have two deep canyons while the lane next to them is fine. In fact King County Metro has to pay millions in fines to the state because the buses are excessively heavy. No roads without bus traffic have the same type of damage.
> Wider tires do not reduce axle weight. Which is part of the reason to know that axle weight alone isn't a sufficient scale. If you connect 2 cars axle to axle, they won't start doing 8x as much damage. What matters is axle weight divided by tire width.
I wish you did a little more studying before talking so authoritatively.