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I miss thinking hard

jernesto.com

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Re: I miss thinking hard

#631

Post by lakatadam »

socalgal2 wrote: post #261
gyomu wrote: post #32

This March 2025 post from Aral Balkan stuck with me: https://mastodon.ar.al/@aral/114160190826192080 "Coding is like taking a lump of clay and slowly working it into the thing you want it to become. It is this process, and your intimacy with the medium and the materials you’re shaping, that teaches you about what you’re making – its qualities, tolerances, and limits – even as you make it. You know the least about wha…

To me it's all abstraction. I didn't write my own OS. I didn't write my own compiler. I didn't write the standard library. I just use them. I could write them but I'm happy to work on the new thing that uses what's already there. This is no different than many things. I could grow a tree and cut it into wood but I don't. I could buy wood and nails and brackets and make furniture but I don't. I instead just fill my ho…

I really appreciate this sentiment. It feels absolutely overwhelming the pace at which new tools and AI protocols are being released, leaving a feeling of constantly falling behind. But approaching from the other end, I can just make things that I do come up with and explore the new protocols only if I can't do the thing with what I've already grasped.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#633

Post by ativzzz »

davidmurdoch wrote: post #460

I'm wondering if everyone here saying they think harder with LLM agents have never reached "flow state" while programming. I just can't imagine using 100% of my mental focus state for hours with an agent. Sure, I think differently when my coding is primarily via agent, but I've never been totally enveloped by my thoughts while doing so. For those who have found a "flow state" with LLM agents, what's that like?

I've literally never found flow state with programming. Is it even possible when working as a full stack web dev? I am constantly context switching between backend/frontend, reading documentation, looking at/modifying data, refreshing & interacting with the browser, checking/double checking feature requirements, asking people about things.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#635

Post by ericmcer »

fl0ki wrote: post #572

It really bothers me how many comments on this topic (here and elsewhere) draw a false parallel between LLM-based coding as an abstraction and frameworks and compilers as an abstraction. They're not the same thing and it matters. Frameworks and compilers are designed to be leak-proof abstractions. Any way in which they deviate from their abstract promise is a bug that can be found, filed, and permanently fixed. You g…

That is a good point because your brain interacts with them differently as well.

If my C compiler sometimes worked and sometimes didn't I would just mash compile like an ape until it started working.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#636

Post by hoppp »

woah wrote: post #83

Just work on more ambitious projects?

Exactly, go where the AI can't go.

I am building a project that AI is incapable of doing and I really need to think hard and progress slowly but hopefully it will create real value.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#637

Post by archagon »

globular-toast wrote: post #291
socalgal2 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's all abstraction. I didn't write my own OS. I didn't write my own compiler. I didn't write the standard library. I just use them. I could write them but I'm happy to work on the new thing that uses what's already there. This is no different than many things. I could grow a tree and cut it into wood but I don't. I could buy wood and nails and brackets and make furniture but I don't. I instead just fill my ho…

There are two stages to becoming a decent programmer: first you learn to use abstraction, then you learn when not to use abstraction. Trying to find the right level is the art. Once you learn the tools of the trade and can do abstraction, it's natural to want to abstract everything. Most programmers go through such a phase. But sometimes things really are distinct and trying to find an abstraction that does both will…

AI is not an abstraction.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#638

Post by archagon »

fl0ki wrote: post #572

It really bothers me how many comments on this topic (here and elsewhere) draw a false parallel between LLM-based coding as an abstraction and frameworks and compilers as an abstraction. They're not the same thing and it matters. Frameworks and compilers are designed to be leak-proof abstractions. Any way in which they deviate from their abstract promise is a bug that can be found, filed, and permanently fixed. You g…

Exactly. It’s a bit startling how many programmers don’t seem to know the meaning of “abstraction.”

Re: I miss thinking hard

#639

Post by johnfn »

encyclopedism wrote: post #543
keyle wrote: post #63

I don't get it. I think just as hard, I type less. I specify precisely and I review. If anything, all we've changed is working at a higher level. The product is the same. But these people just keep mixing things up like "wow I got a ferrari now, watch it fly off the road!" Yeah so you got a tools upgrade; it's faster, it's more powerful. Keep it on the road or give up driving! We went from auto completing keywords, t…

I find it interesting, the comments on this post (not just this particular comment per se) and the sheer inability to relate or ATTEMPT to relate to another persons experience or feeling. The post itself articulated a viewpoint and experience, your having a different one does not negate the other. Nor does your perspective mean the other does not exist. I'm dumbfounded at many of the comments. Here are some clipped c…

When I read the article, I feel the same emotions that I feel if someone were to tell me "I keep trying to ride a bike but I keep falling off". My experience with LLMs is that the "lack of thinking" is mostly a quick trough you fall into before you come out the other side understanding how to deal with LLMs better. And yes, there's nothing wrong with relating to someone's experience, but mostly I just want to tell that guy, just keep trying, it'll get better, and you'll be back to thinking hard if you keep at it.

But then OP says stuff like:

> I am not sure if there will ever be a time again when both needs can be met at once.

In my head that translates to "I don't think there will ever be a time again when I can actually ride my bike for more than 100 feet." At which point you probably start getting responses more like "I don't get it" because there's only so much empathy you can give someone before you start getting a little frustrated and being like "cmon it's not THAT bad, just keep trying, we've all been there".

Re: I miss thinking hard

#640

Post by hearsathought »

heliumtera wrote: post #430
Hendrikto wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, your favorite movie is not crap because the creators didn't grind their own lens. But Pulp Fiction would not have been a masterpiece if Tarantino just typed “Write a gangster movie.” into a prompt field.

And if he did, why would I prefer using his prompt instead of mine? "Write a gangster movie that I like", instead of "...a movie this other guy likes". But because this is not the case, we appreciate Tarantino more than we appreciate gangster movies. It is about the process.

> But because this is not the case, we appreciate Tarantino more than we appreciate gangster movies.

Do we? I don't think people appreciate tarantino more than gangster movies. Don't think people appreciate tarantino more than pulp fiction. Frankly, tarantino doesn't factor in at all.

> It is about the process.

I never considered the process when watching pulp fiction. It's the finished product, not the process, that matters.

Put it this way, we know who tarantino is because of pulp fiction. Not the other way around.

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