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How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

japantimes.co.jp

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Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#631

Post by charintstr »

TheRoque wrote: post #331

Love how people (americans) are always framing it "China vs the west" or "Russia vs the West" when in reality it's just China vs the US. It's convenient and makes people think that the whole western world is allied and agrees with the US. While it's true in theory, the reality is much more nuanced than this.

China has interests at direct odds to Europe like assisting the Russians to victory in Ukraine. It also has interest to dump exports onto European markets. Regardless of whether you agree with the US, China is going to be looking out only for itself from now on.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#632

Post by powerapple »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #425
yanhangyhy wrote: post #323

Domestically, we often put it this way: since it wasn’t made by God, we can definitely make it ourselves. It’s only a matter of time — if not this year, then next year; if we can’t do it next year, we’ll just keep going. This is how we approach everything. There is a small caveat, though. China was not actually that far behind in the semiconductor field in the past. The problem was that corruption and fraudulent proj…

> This is how we approach everything. > This is because it is not only a government policy, but also a Chinese way of thinking. Nothing can interrupt this process. Is there any evidence that this kind of homogeneous "national character" is objectively real? Or is it just another story that people tell themselves?

I don't agree. I think this comes out of necessity. What else a developing country can do in order to develop itself? Everyone believes they are unique and different, I don't agree.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#633

Post by powerapple »

CalRobert wrote: post #480
iknowSFR wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a NYT’s interview several months back where the journalist phrased it as in America, you have to prove success first to get funded. But in China, funding comes first and the successful companies emerge.

That sounds more like Europe than America.

Europe is like the US, money is owned by private but they are old money, not new tech billionaires, and does not take the risks as the US. In China, money is owned by the state, and they are willing to take the risks as the US. In this way, I think China is more similar to US than Europe.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#634

Post by Alex2037 »

quitit wrote: post #624
Alex2037 wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>China aren't looking at EUV so they can break into the graphics cards market or lower the price of RAM. Absolute utter numpties. they do it to protect themselves from sanctions and tariffs. scandalous, I know.

that's comically* naive, and plainly false - China itself has already stated their objectives. * Actually, wilfully naive would be a better fit.

provide a direct quote, then.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#635

Post by mensetmanusman »

Urahandystar wrote: post #497
mensetmanusman wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some copying creates a first mover disadvantage in game theory in regards to capital resource allocation. It requires second order thinking to understand, but it’s not super complicated.

Yes but thats not the copyers problem is it? Risk is inherent in all things the second order requires that you keep advancing by attracting resources.

It depends on the sophistication of your analysis.

What are possible problems you can imagine a copyer having?

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#636

Post by qcnguy »

owenversteeg wrote: post #590
qcnguy wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s only a matter of time, but time matters, as they say. You should know that what China is doing was tried in the past. It is an old story. When the microchip was brand new (invented in the USA) the Soviets realized they needed the tech for military purposes. So they built a closed city devoted to silicon research called Zelenograd. It was staffed with very bright physicists and engineers. But Zelenograd didn't ma…

The history of Soviet electronics manufacturing is fascinating, but there are some huge differences and I actually don't think the private sector is the largest. One is the pace and type of innovation. In the 70s and 80s the landscape was incredibly dynamic and technology went through several huge changes. If you wanted to run a clone of the US tech industry then, you would need a distributed, dynamic effort across m…

At the start of the microchip age, the US wasn't that far ahead. The techniques for manufacturing microchips weren't anything special and the Soviets could do so easily. The problem was the top-down mandate to clone, not lack of internal capability.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#637

Post by qcnguy »

kakacik wrote: post #581
qcnguy wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soviet Russia at that time was a global superpower that had developed nuclear weapons and was winning the space race. It only exported heavily to other communist states, but it definitely could do advanced tech and manufacturing. Modern PRC and USSR aren't exact analogues, but the approach of their governments is clearly similar in this case.

Soviets winning space race during microchip era? I think you have mildly mixed up decades. Soviets were leaders till US put people on the moon, that was so far beyond what soviets were capable of this race stopped, and they just focused on ICBMs. Soviet tech was sturdy and more primitive (thus more sturdy), much cheaper and they were willing to deliver it to anybody.

I wasn't attempting to be extremely precise with dates. My point was only that the Soviets and the US were technologically comparable in that era. Yes, the US put in huge efforts and were able to overtake them in the space race, largely due to a stronger economy rather than some unique technological skill.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#638

Post by qcnguy »

yanhangyhy wrote: post #612
qcnguy wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s only a matter of time, but time matters, as they say. You should know that what China is doing was tried in the past. It is an old story. When the microchip was brand new (invented in the USA) the Soviets realized they needed the tech for military purposes. So they built a closed city devoted to silicon research called Zelenograd. It was staffed with very bright physicists and engineers. But Zelenograd didn't ma…

The argument that never fails to appear: China’s failures are blamed on communism, while China’s successes are attributed to capitalism.

It never fails to appear because it's correct and obviously so. Look at when China started to become rich and what they changed around that time.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#639

Post by ipdashc »

cryptonector wrote: post #606
ipdashc wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have the press release in question? I'd be very curious to see it. All I found at a glance was Truman's well-known one ( https://www.atomicarchive.com/resources/documents/hiroshima-... ) which was followed by the Secretary of War's ( https://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/450806b.html ) and neither seem to mention anything about enrichment methods or even the concept of isotope separation.

Hmm, it was not quite a press release, but it's in the Smyth report from August 12, 1945: https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-project-history/publi... (search for diffusion).

Neat! Thank you!

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#640

Post by DrScientist »

mrguyorama wrote: post #567
DrScientist wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure fighters matter as much these days - Russia has air superiority in terms of jets over Ukraine - but it uses them infrequently - appears the problem is the ground based counter measures are quite effective and much cheaper. If they want to attack by air - drones and missiles rather than planes appear to be the way to go. Similarly aircraft carriers - they can only really be used now to bully small countries.…

>Russia has air superiority in terms of jets over Ukraine No, no they do not. Russia has more fighter jets than Ukraine yes but that's not what "Air superiority" is, let alone "Air supremacy" which is what the USA designs for. If you cannot suppress air defense networks, you do not have anything close to air superiority. If you cannot fly missions in an airspace, you do not have superiority. >What matters is drones a…

> If you cannot suppress air defense networks, you do not have anything close to air superiority. If you cannot fly missions in an airspace, you do not have superiority.

Isn't that my point? The balance has shifted.

BTW I did't say planes or aircraft carriers are not useful - just that they are not useful for the political reasons that are given. ie they are useful in bullying second rate countries - however that's not how defence spending is justified - it's all about existential threat of Russia/China etc.

>in order to keep the peace is madness.

Sorry that sentence was unclear - I didn't mean they are dismantling to keep the peace, I'm saying the organisation were set up to keep the peace post WWII.

My reading of why they are dismantling them is because they think these organisations and treaties constrain them - which is of course true - and by and large a good idea.

Bottom line if you build up weapons because you fear somebody, you create fear in the other and create a vicious cycle - good for the arms industry - no good for anybody else. The only way to break that is to talk, do deals, build trust.

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