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Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

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Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Provide numbers. Sanders, for instance, funded his proposed system by (among other things) taxing capital gains at the level of ordinary income. Not tax penalizing non-capital income is sort of an essential reform in the era of increasing automation anyway; I'm not sure what point you are trying to make there. The average middle income family isn't making a substantial share of their income in forms taxed as long-t…

You're contradicting yourself. You took me to task earlier for factoring in the wage penalty for working in the UK market --- fair enough, though really I'm making the simple descriptive point that people in the US are accepting of a dysfunctional status quo in part because they would be worse off in Europe. But taxing capital gains at the level of ordinary income would be an immense change our tax code. All sorts of…

The counterargument is simple - it works in other countries.

Other countries have healthcare systems that don't generate medical bankruptcies, and don't put a slaver's chain around the necks of employees who risk financial destruction if they have to give up an employer-funded plan.

You're essentially arguing that 500k medical bankruptcies every single year, out of a population of 340 million, is a small price to pay for an imaginary financial benefit that you're convinced exists, for some loosely defined demographic, but which you've failed to quantify.

This is, very specifically, the problem that destroys your argument.

Some people in the US are better off until they aren't.

One serious medical crisis - like an extended bout with cancer - is enough to wipe out the benefits, and leave people who used to be prosperous out on the streets.

Literally. Not as an exaggeration, not as rhetoric, but as a cold, hard reality that affects half a million people every year.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#632

I fought insurance over this past summer after they declined covering a life saving surgery for my 6-year-old child at the last minute. We were in despair that my child's life was at risk each day we waited because of insurance incompetence. ChatGPT literally guided me through the whole external appeal process, who to contact outside of normal channels to ask for help / apply pressure, researched questions I had, hel…

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Then what sort of feel good stories about AI would we have . The US needs to adopt a single flat income / corp tax, government provided healthcare, and move on to the rest of life.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the insurance is provided by private companies whose incentive is to earn as much money as possible, at cost of the people in need of medical care. In my country, I never heard of anyone going bancrupt over a hospital bill. It just isn't a thing. Here's a fun story: my sister was living with an exchange student from the US. Some day the student was complaining about intense intestinal pain she's h…

In fact many of the largest insurers are nonprofits, and insurance itself is a small faction of our total expenditure. People believe a lot of weird things about US health care economics. https://nationalhealthspending.org/

There's another aspect: In my country, hospitals and (public) health insurance are both operated by the state and work together. If I break my arm, I go to the hospital, show my e-card and that's it. All the financials are directly handled between hospital and the (public) insurance provider. I don't have to worry about cost of treatment because I know it will be fully covered.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#634

I fought insurance over this past summer after they declined covering a life saving surgery for my 6-year-old child at the last minute. We were in despair that my child's life was at risk each day we waited because of insurance incompetence. ChatGPT literally guided me through the whole external appeal process, who to contact outside of normal channels to ask for help / apply pressure, researched questions I had, hel…

This is why AI is an equalizing force. Eventually, we'll just have a free (or at least much cheaper) psychiatrist in our pocket. Sure, AI advice is workse than the advice of a competent professional, but it's very often better no advice, and that's what you get if you can't afford the professional.

I shudder to think when insurance companies use AI to counteract customers using AI to navigate through their system. They'll eventually catch up, and people who don't use any kind of AI will be disadvantaged.

That is, until someone sells them a turnkey AI service to do insurance claims... and decides to play both teams so resolutions come back at pre-AI levels, and the free market(TM) is happy because a new equilibrium has been reached.

Maybe I just need more sleep.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#635

I fought insurance over this past summer after they declined covering a life saving surgery for my 6-year-old child at the last minute. We were in despair that my child's life was at risk each day we waited because of insurance incompetence. ChatGPT literally guided me through the whole external appeal process, who to contact outside of normal channels to ask for help / apply pressure, researched questions I had, hel…

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Add a French and American person, in the US you hear "insurance did not approve", in France it's more "you can't get an appointment / the surgery provider does not have any spots unless you go to their spots in their private hospital".

The French system is more predictable (because any vaguely sane healthcare system has a price for a code instead of negotiated rates, negotiated rates is the most inefficient way to run this market) & you can get cost estimates though. And in both countries, if you live in a small town in both systems, the healthcare you will receive will suck.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#636
post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't have been clearer that I was referring to tuition, including the fact that I said that specifically upthread.

Well then as long as the kids don't need housing or books or food or to pay the other fees they'll be set. Luckily those are all optional

They in fact differ wildly between students and between colleges! UIC and NIU are commuter universities where students generally don't live on campus. Students at UIUC live in campus-provided housing for their first year, but not generally for subsequent years. Everybody, whether they're in school or not, pays for housing. So no, the cost comparison you're offering here is not very useful.

Shortly later

I also think you might have to ask around to find a student paying full price for books.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're contradicting yourself. You took me to task earlier for factoring in the wage penalty for working in the UK market --- fair enough, though really I'm making the simple descriptive point that people in the US are accepting of a dysfunctional status quo in part because they would be worse off in Europe. But taxing capital gains at the level of ordinary income would be an immense change our tax code. All sorts of…

The counterargument is simple - it works in other countries. Other countries have healthcare systems that don't generate medical bankruptcies, and don't put a slaver's chain around the necks of employees who risk financial destruction if they have to give up an employer-funded plan. You're essentially arguing that 500k medical bankruptcies every single year , out of a population of 340 million, is a small price to pa…

You're responding persuasively to somebody's argument, but it isn't mine. I'm talking about the large cohort of American voters who would be worse off under a single-payer system.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#638
post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why quality of life in Europe, is so superior. That's very subjective, and I would rather have my freedoms instead of your/their liberties, thanks!

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Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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I think the reason is that people know it is a problem but ideologically they really disagree about what to do about it. The impasse creates an opportunity for profit driven actors to fight reforms. Also, democracies do dumb things sometimes. See Brexit. But also, sometimes people from other countries-- I am thinking parts of Europe-- underestimate how well paid people in the US often are. They compare the averages,…

You could offer me 10x my current salary and I wouldn’t take it if it meant I had to stress and be terrified about the life of my 6 year old daighter because a company wants to make more money.

That is the definition of not worth it.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-american (from South America) who lived in both USA an Europe: Yes, in USA you get much more money, like you said 2x~5x, but then: University is expensive as fck. Health care is expensive as fck. You have 5 days of paid sick leave per year in most companies. You have 10 days of paid holidays per year in most companies. In contrast, in Europe: University was cheap or free. Healthcare is cheap and universal. I…

If this were true, the number of Americans I have known who moved to Europe would be roughly equal to the number of Europeans I have known who have moved to the US. That's not data, that's anecdote. But what is the European country where more people go there from the US than come to the US from there?

The two things are not equals. The US has for a western country, relaxed standards for immigration[0], in particular if you were coming from Europe, it's quite a bit easier to establish residency here.

The reverse is not true. European nations aren't very immigration friendly by comparison. On top of that, the US government, assuming you keep your citizenship, does not make it easy to live abroad. US government tax policy for citizens who live overseas is much more aggressive than any other western country, from what I understand.

Combined with the fact its alot harder to go the other way, and the US government does a fair amount to discourage it, I'm not shocked more US citizens aren't moving to Europe.

[0]: At least before Trump returned to office, I'm unsure how much of this has changed.

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