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We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

thenexus.media

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Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#631

Post by specproc »

StopDisinfo910 wrote: post #576
specproc wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is it. I've lived under governments of a variety of different stripes in some very different parts of the world, I've lived in war zones. Day to day life has been more or less the same across all of them. You go shopping, go to work, see friends, have a few beers or maybe a smoke, eat out, go to weddings, birthdays and funerals, play sports. People run businesses, post memes. The way non-OECD, "non-democra…

It sure is good being a foreigner in an autocratic country. You are most likely there there for business. You don’t really care about anything because you will leave anyway. Most of my coworkers in Singapore were all like that. Who cares about the mass deportation of bus drivers after their strikes for better working condition? Why look at what’s behind the curtain when you can enjoy the pool? I have met people who h…

I'll respond to this one, as it's at the top and it started off unpleasantly personal. Do try and avoid making assumptions about the person you're speaking to, please.

I live in a post-Soviet country taking an autocratic turn, I have friends fleeing. I will probably have to leave myself and it's making me miserable. I do not mean to diminish their experience or the experience of anyone suffering under an authoritarian government.

If you'll read the context of the post, I was talking about how Western (predominately US) media portrays other countries, which is frankly dehumanizing for the most part.

I grew up thinking that war starts, life stops; that a different form of government radically and instantly transmogrifies every aspect of a society. We are a peaceful, normal, democratic society and everywhere else is war or repression. A primitive dualism which has not stood up to my experience.

This is what's implied in the news and the movies, and forms a basis for the acceptance of the Western versions of the shared problems I discussed. It is often exaggerated in a way that lines places up for a bomb-driven democratization process.

It also means that, as GP noted, we don't feel the problems coming along when they do.

Do you get where I'm coming from?

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#633

Post by RamSam50 »

Just to add, if you fall into certain risk profiles, some of which you are born into and you can never get out of, it becomes incredibly hard to get basic banking services. Banks will unilaterally close your account. Payment apps will deny you applications and none of them have to explain why.

The rules of the financial credit system are mostly opaque and work through indirect levers. This AML social credit system also totally global, extending anywhere that the FATF has sway.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#634

Post by rafaelmn »

cogman10 wrote: post #591
rafaelmn wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK but that's something that's beginning to happen in the US versus the default of authoritarian regimes - my point is that is not "pretty much the same" as OP put it. You might get physically attacked by some neanderthal if you're openly gay in public in the west, and in some middle eastern countries you get stoned on a public square - but hey we all unwind and have some fun when we can, so it's pretty much the same…

I believe the OP's point was that if you are in the ingroup, you can expect life to be pretty much equivalent to what you'd experience in the US. It's only if you are in the outgroup (like being gay) that you start to see state violence. This is pretty true of most authoritarian regimes. State violence isn't publicly broadcast or when it is it's usually framed as "fighting crime". To Godwin this, life for a non-jewis…

But the distinction is that in-group requires blind obedience in authoritarian countries. Half this forum is calling their political leaders idiots and will work (vote) against them, they are still in group. This is not a small distinction.

Also the path upwards in society changes a lot.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#635

Post by StopDisinfo910 »

makeitdouble wrote: post #623
StopDisinfo910 wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly is. I’m not pretending that liberal democracies are perfect. Ensuring that the one with the least power or at the margin don’t become victims and remain free is a constant struggle but people are fighting it. It can be a dispiriting one when you go through times like the one of the USA are currently traversing It would be a deep mistake however to fall from the traditional defence of illiberal countries…

I look at it from a different lens: the political system and what people's life look like isn't a predefined matrix. To take a mild example, we don't look at federal countries and assume it affects citizen's life in a radical way that can be straight attributed to the federal nature of it. Germany biggest differences from France probably aren't because of that. Sure it has an impact, but not in an easily predictable…

> Authoritarian regime are prone to abuse, but that's not enough to guarantee it will be managed worse than the worse democratic countries.

You are missing my points by orienting the discussion towards an abstract concept such as well managed.

Authoritarian countries mistreat part of their populations in a way which makes them morally abhorrent and that’s by design. You will hardly find people pointing it out and defending the marginalised in authoritarian countries because they themselves become the target of the state.

I’m not blind to the fact that most of the apologists I have met in my life who are always happy to point that it’s relative and what about the majority actually happy often want nothing more than to be the authoritarian power themselves. This seems particularly relevant in the current American context.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#636

Post by fragmede »

refurb wrote: post #619
coldtea wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In certain things it can be better. Singapore might be a state run authoritatively with the same party in power for 60 years, but you're free to walk around at any time without fear of any crime happening to you. Or public projects that "just work" where in the "western liberal" case their deteriorate or are tied up in bureucracy. And life if "you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble" is…

This is the same argument from Mussolini's facists - "at least the trains run on time". I'm unmoved by the argument. If the choice comes down between "the trains run on time" and "I can arbitrarily imprisons for my speech", I'd happily live with trains that don't run on time.

Setup a site to stream Pixar's latest movie, or post some CSAM, and see if you don't get imprisoned. It's not like totally arbitrary, just don't criticize dear leader. Where the US is though, is that Trump wants to make criticizing him online a crime. We know this is true because of the actions taken by him against people who are immigrants who have been critical of him online. So I'll let a tiny bit of doom out, but he way the US is headed, the trains won't run on time and you can't run your mouth about shit the people in power don't like as well.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#637

Post by aurareturn »

deadfoxygrandpa wrote: post #321
Rover222 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is kind of a pointless statement when you make it that broadly. Are you talking about life in North Korea or in China? And do you think American media really distorts the "other" side more than Chinese or Russian media distorts what life in the west is like?

> And do you think American media really distorts the "other" side more than Chinese or Russian media distorts what life in the west is like? having lived for a long time in both china and america: yes. chinese people are given a much more accurate view of life in america than americans are given an accurate view of life in china thats why there was that meme going around earlier this year when tik tok people joined…

  having lived for a long time in both china and america: yes. chinese people are given a much more accurate view of life in america than americans are given an accurate view of life in china
I think a lot of people in America (and HN commenters) think that life in China is closer to North Korea than Singapore based on massive media propaganda. In reality, in T1 and T2 cities in China, quality of life has exceeded American cities in my humble opinion. They're quite close to Singapore from my experience.

When I visited Shenzhen and then came back to the US recently, I felt like I went back in time 15 years.

I've been saying on HN for years that the commenters here should buy a ticket and go see China for themselves. It's extremely safe. Far safer than any American city/suburb. No, they're not going to detain you and send you to jail. They don't care about you. People are generally friendly even if you're from the US.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#638

Post by makeitdouble »

StopDisinfo910 wrote: post #635
makeitdouble wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I look at it from a different lens: the political system and what people's life look like isn't a predefined matrix. To take a mild example, we don't look at federal countries and assume it affects citizen's life in a radical way that can be straight attributed to the federal nature of it. Germany biggest differences from France probably aren't because of that. Sure it has an impact, but not in an easily predictable…

> Authoritarian regime are prone to abuse, but that's not enough to guarantee it will be managed worse than the worse democratic countries. You are missing my points by orienting the discussion towards an abstract concept such as well managed. Authoritarian countries mistreat part of their populations in a way which makes them morally abhorrent and that’s by design. You will hardly find people pointing it out and def…

My general point would be that mistreating part of the population is a tool in a toolbox, and countries from all boards use it way more than we acknowledge.

We have democracies that either hang people on public places, pass eugenic laws, sentence gays to prison, or will engage in ethnic cleansing under official orders. Even in milder areas, prventing whole sections of the population from getting citizenship or limiting their reach (mass incarceration etc.) are well know levers that help a country be nice to its most vocal population while shutting down a whole section of the population. Those are readily available tools, whatever the political system.

And being well managed isn't abstract, you might be better off living in Monaco or Morocco, which are full fledge kingdoms, than a democracy like Nigeria for instance.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#639

Post by don_esteban »

boppo1 wrote: post #625
don_esteban wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, what country are you from? What time period are you talking about? Is it your lived experience or the second-hand memory? I lived in Bulgaria & Czechoslovakia in 70's and 80's, and my memories are quite different than yours. You can buy fresh vegetables and fruits (in-season, local, not shipped from Peru) & dairy products & bread & eggs as much as you can afford (and the prices were affordable, stable for a doze…

>Unlike the west, where most people still believe the official narratives. Tell me what these narratives are. I do not disagree, but I am a westerner who never left home.

We (the west) are the force of good, spreading democracy and freedom around the world.

And our socio-economic system is the best there can be, don't even think about changing anything about it (questioning this is a total taboo).

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#640

Post by M95D »

markus_zhang wrote: post #464
boxed wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- China: records are centralized - Elsewhere: records are fragmented Although Meta is trying to "fix" that last part of course.

TBF it took China decades to centralize the data. Back in the 2010s you can technically marry two persons in different provinces because the system was fragmented along the provinces. I think they finally solved the problem 10 years ago. China is actually far more fragmented than some people thought. The central government isn’t that all powerful. I mean even today, let alone 20 years ago. It is actually the big busi…

But I remember some story about Ali CEO dissappeared for a while... So, not exactly like US corporations.
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