Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

helsinkitimes.fi

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

631–640 of 696 posts

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#631

Post by cyberax »

makeitdouble wrote: post #405
cyberax wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the same time NYC and Toronto, we are removing protected bike lanes. In North America the acceptable amount of lives per year to sacrifice for a little convenience for drivers is above zero, and apparently rising. BTW, what do you think about the 5-10 extra lifetimes that people in NYC collectively waste _every_ _day_ in commute compared to smaller cities? A well-designed car-oriented city will have commutes of…

> well-designed car-oriented city Might be true, but at this point it's an utopian level of fantasy. We spent more than a century with cars in old cities, new cities, smaller ones bigger ones. The only proven results we've had is reducing cars solveany problems at once.

The only proven result is the prosperity in the US, that started to ebb once the economic forces started concentrating people into the larger cities.

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#632

Post by cyberax »

Mawr wrote: post #520
cyberax wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> especially in terms of door-to-door time So in other words, your city made it extremely inconvenient to use anything BUT bikes to get around. Which is exactly my point. Do an experiment, drop 10 points randomly within your city. Now plot routes between them using various transport modes. I bet that transit will be 3-4 times slower than bikes. > I have basically zero reason to buy a car: even if there was zero traff…

> So in other words, your city made it extremely inconvenient to use anything BUT bikes to get around. Which is exactly my point. No, most cities worldwide are designed to make using anything but a car to get around extremely inconvenient. Best seen in the US. > I guess you have zero kids, and your country has a collapsing population? Is there anything about kids in particular that makes them unable to walk and/or bi…

> Is there anything about kids in particular that makes them unable to walk and/or bike?

Time and inconvenience if you're not using a car. It more-or-less requires a full-time commitment from at least one parent. That's why you see a sharp drop in large families in cities.

> The really young kids go into strollers and bike/cargo bike seats.

Try that with 2 or 3 children.

> Yeah a bike path that's not connected to a bike path network is of zero use. But then Rome wasn't built in a day was it?

It is connected. We literally buried about 200 million dollars into building a bike network that spans the city. It sits unused, not even replacing the traffic that it displaced. The percentage of bike commutes is around 2-5% depending on the survey, almost identical to 10 years ago.

But the good news is that our downtown is now full of shuttered storefronts, with most commercial blocks having at least one available for lease.

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#633

Post by goopypoop »

muzani wrote: post #545
kqr wrote: post #380

This is one of the things I find difficult about travelling abroad, particularly with children. I'm used to incredibly high safety standards, and when I'm in traffic in many other places in the world it feels like going back a few decades. Genuine question: we have a lot of research on how not to die in traffic (lower speeds around pedestrians, bicyclists stopped ahead of cars in intersections, children in backward f…

Where I live, gig riders will run red lights because it ends up increasing their pay for the day by about 30%. They're not being 'exploited' into starvation level pay; some make twice the salary of a factory worker. The ones working 13 hrs/day make the equivalent of a marketing director or bank manager. Most of the accidents I've been in have been people rushing to work or rushing to pick up relatives from the airpor…

> The ones working 13 hrs/day make the equivalent of a marketing director or bank manager.

Sure if they work 13 hour days for 7 days a week for 52 weeks a year at >$15/hr. And have no expenses. And you ignore the precarity and the physical danger. Then yeah it's equivalent to a young bank manager.

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#634

Post by perching_aix »

Ray20 wrote: post #280
perching_aix wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't claim to have the perfect definition for authoritarian behavior, but I would say that intending to consolidate authority is pretty key to it. Which making drivers' life miserable isn't really connected to, or at least I really don't see it. Otherwise, the typical government is a central authority made up of people, carrying out lawmaking, adjudication, and enforcement activities [0], and so basically all of t…

In my understanding, authoritarianism is not only defined by the desire to strengthen their own power, but also by the desire to bring the way of life of all other people in line with their own moral values. For example, the persecution of homosexuals is widely recognized as an authoritarian behavior and has nothing to do with consolidate of authority

> the persecution of homosexuals is widely recognized as an authoritarian behavior

I have unfortunately missed out on that then, because I both do not recognize it as authoritarian behavior, nor do I recognize that recognition to be widely established at all.

There is a distinct correlation between authoritarian regimes and homosexuals being persecuted that I'm also aware of, but this is absolutely the first time I've ever heard someone describe the persecution of homosexuals as an authoritarian behavior.

Maybe we read the phrase here different? When I read "authoritarian behavior" I do not read it as "behavior associated with authoritarians", but instead as "behavior that is authoritarian in its nature".

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#635

Post by ImprovedSilence »

tormeh wrote: post #515
lettergram wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a reason rural folks have a higher fatality rate. That said, at least in the US, there’s the presumption that those who live more rural are more rugged, capable, and harder working. I used to live in Chicago and SF. I’ve since moved to rural Tennessee. I can tell you everyone, including my kids, now have learned to drive our tractor. Granted I’m with them, but we had my 4-5 year old moving hay and they were h…

A car is not a tractor. The risks are really very different, and generally don't relate to speed.

Even still, I suspect tractor deaths and injuries are far far higher per driver than for cars. Tractors are very capable, but it's also very very easy to get in a dangerous situation with them.

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#636

Post by goopypoop »

Mawr wrote: post #501
yard2010 wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. In the future there will be no cars and no deaths related to them. We just live in the 1800' of our time.

I don't think bicycles, trams, buses and trains existed back then in the way they do now.

I bet horse-related deaths have dropped

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#637

Post by goopypoop »

gs17 wrote: post #612
crote wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, idiots are everywhere. The thing is, the vast majority of people - regardless of culture - have some basic sense of self-preservation. Speeding is easy when that 30km/h road is designed like a 120km/h highway. Speeding is a lot harder when that 30km/h road has speed bumps, chicanes, bottlenecks, and is paved with bricks rather than asphalt: if you try to speed, it'll quickly feel like you need to be a pro…

That's true. I stopped riding the bus because the road to the stop had big speed bumps put in, and it turns out distracted drivers fly off the road when they hit them, and one near miss was enough to make me drive instead (sure it's a cognitive bias, but it's enough to make me pick the more convenient option). One fewer pedestrian means one fewer potential pedestrian death!

…plus the potential pedestrian deaths you cause by collision plus the actual impact of the extra pollution

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#638

Post by TechDebtDevin »

Sesse__ wrote: post #575
TechDebtDevin wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in Norway for a few years, and something I thought was interesting is everyone who went on a walk would wear a hi-viz vest/arm band. The kindergartners were cute, they'd all where hi viz overalls on their afternoon walks and be tied together like sled dogs. Another thing in Norway, at least in the town I was in, it was almost a guarantee that you'd be breathalyzed on a early saturday/sunday morning if you wer…

> The kindergartners were cute, they'd all where hi viz overalls on their afternoon walks and be tied together like sled dogs. They're typically not tied together. There's a rope and everybody is told to hold on to it (this makes it a lot less likely that anyone wanders off into traffic). > And I was told even if you were .02 you'd lose your license for a year, and 10% of you salary as a fine. This is only partially…

Thanks for the clarification. It was really a delight being there. I would go back in a heartbeat given the oppprtunity.

I think that I when I'm old I will look back at my time in Norway as one of the most pleasent periods of my life :)

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#639

Post by YZF »

aDyslecticCrow wrote: post #598
YZF wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is Marine Drive in Vancouver: https://maps.app.goo.gl/ThnKn7PmD8sKSnNs5 Speed limit 50km/h ... It has lights and intersections. Almost no pedestrians. Vancouver has many wide multi-lane streets. Some in denser areas with more pedestrian traffic some less. It has almost no real highways going to the city.

yes. I feel like European cities makes greater distinction between "large road" and "small road". A road this wide and open would have barriers, trenches, and road-exit lanes rather a red light. I took a jump around with google maps for an example; https://maps.app.goo.gl/1qgPoM35RCjxLR2d9 . This is the E12 road through Helsinki. It would be considered a major road that connects Helsinki to the rest of the country. B…

The E12 looks like a proper highway that in many places would be at least 90km/hr (possibly a variable speed limit depending on the amount of traffic).

Here's another local example, Granville Street, which is also 3 lanes but definitely denser/busier: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4X6RRVKUFKNoFA248

What tends to happen in practice is that people here drive faster than the speed limit on some of these, e.g. both my examples I would say 70km/hr is a lot more common than the actual 50km/hr speed. On smaller streets, lessay: https://maps.app.goo.gl/5AaW7FgiuK5ti6sy6 you would typically go slower than the limit, especially if there are more cars parked, or pedestrians present or more traffic. In some of the smaller streets traffic can't even pass both ways when there are cars parked and people alternate the right of way.

I tend to think of speed limits as a way to fine drivers rather than a true safety thing. If you want people to drive slower you need to create the conditions that will make them drive slower. In many small streets that tends to be speed bumps (which I don't like) but there are other solutions. You want the speed to feel natural to the drivers, i.e. that most reasonable people would drive that speed in order to be able to respond to what they predict might happen.

Reducing speed limits feels like a cop out. A better solution includes better thinking about city design, roads, and transit. Reducing the speed limit is unlikely (at least around these parts) to actually result in people driving slower.

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#640

Post by dredmorbius »

ipnon wrote: post #350
quailfarmer wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Milwaukee isn’t in Minnesota, Eh!

Everywhere between Greenwich Village and Russian Hill is the same to me.

http://www.mappingthenation.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/Rums...>
Post reply on HN