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Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

proton.me

631–640 of 665 posts

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that we can easily try to pretend that game consoles are not general purpose computers. And doing so is not going to cause issues to the fabric of the society.

Hahaha, wow, OK. Then we must acknowledge that we're talking about PHONES here, and the applications on it are optional TOYS. The phone could have no app store at all, and still be highly functional and complete. In fact... that's how the iPhone launched. There was no app store for years. Meanwhile, a game system with no games is not functional at all. Might want to reconsider your argument here.

No, they are general purpose computers that can also work as cellphones.

The first iPhone technically wasn't a smartphone (unlike its competitors at the time) because it did not have a way to install third-party programs. This situation only lasted a year though.

It did have a pre-installed Google Maps app, very much not a toy...

And don't game consoles typically come out bundled with some first party games too ?

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#632

Not related directly and not related to subscription — a recent case of Apple’s anticompetitive and user hostile policies is Apple essentially locking down email push notifications and essentially forcing everyone to use fetch. They had given a way via some signing and now they just shut it down or it broke and they didn’t fix it. Now if every mail provider have their own app then they can circumvent via some shenani…

Do you have more sources on that please? Thanks.

Sources on this thing/news?

I had made a post recently which didn't see any traction https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44398136 maybe it can be a pointer

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire business model that monetises user data, where the actual customer is the advertiser, users do not vote with their wallets, and honest competition is impossible because no one can compete with free, should simply not exist and maybe regulated against—especially in social media, where it incentivises algorithms to push aggravating content in the name of engagement and ad views. Whether Apple should be regul…

What’s weird for me is that users can effectively vote with their wallets - they can refuse to engage with ‘freemium’ or ad-supported media - and they can refuse to consume ads when presented, refuse to engage with calls to action, refuse to pay for products advertised to them in this way. Have you ever been shown a mobile ad, and thought to yourself, “this is a good thing, this is an honest description of a product…

>Is the problem really an inability to vote with our wallets? Or is the problem a complete lack of media/marketing literacy, that leads the credulous to engage with ad slop, against their own best interests?

The problem is companies/marketers who won't take no for an answer... And unfortunately, short of reverse monetization, (marketers must pay individuals for our eyeballs, which has its own logistical problems), there isn't a way to really prevent the pathological impression pipeline that advertising has gravitated toward. In the U.S. unfortunately, there is zero we can do to corral mercantile speech short of collectively coordinated action by the populace since we've written the capability out of our governmental edifice.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no comparison with using a computer vs. a cell phone to send messages over the Internet. "Communicate outside the home" is a pretty vast difference > It's even generally using all the same network protocols. This whole thread was about proprietary iMessage

> "Communicate outside the home" is a pretty vast difference It's genuinely baffling to me that people actually see things this way. When there is a social reason to be outside the house, I take that as a reason not to be staring at a glowing rectangle.

Ok, and what about the overwhelming majority of reasons to be outside the house, which are not social reasons?

It's a bit silly to abandon all contact with the world just because you have to wait for the doctor, go grocery shopping, sit in the train, etc.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is denying access to browsers that support web features they don’t support themselves. Your argument, or attempt to make an argument, somehow neglects this obvious Apple created and enforced barrier.

It "neglects" a universe of equally irrelevant observations.

A) it’s not irrelevant at all. Perhaps you don’t do web design, or perhaps you restrict your designs to functionality Apple doesn’t actively or passively prohibit.

Then you might not be aware that Apple does not support everything other browsers support. Or takes longer to support some things.

The internet has two ends (at least), media source and media user. Both ends require compatible software for any connection to work or work fully.

B) Of course I omit other irrelevant issues. No need for argumentative non-points.

A suggestion that would help me understand you better:

Instead of simply dismissing points out of hand, respond with reasoned thoughts.

Maybe you have a sensible viewpoint?

I have no issue learning from you.

If you can communicate how Apple blocking alternate browser engines doesn’t actually block other browser’s additional web functionality, please explain your work around.

I would appreciate any solution you have. So would many others.

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Apple also prohibits (via there App Store) non-browser apps based on how they use the Internet. So that’s additional gate keeping of Internet functionalit.

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Read Apple’s App Store guidelines for developers. Apple is up front and clear about all these restrictions and prohibitions.

I am lost as to what you are trying to claim they allow, that they openly document they don’t allow.

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Perhaps you have confused internet functionality with Internet addresses.

Indeed, Apple doesn’t block IPs.

But some kind of software at both ends is still required to communicate across the Internet. And blocking specific kinds of Internet functionality at one end, effectively blocks it from both ends, on their locked down devices.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8/10 people in my family circle do not know this bar exists. I know it’s not necessarily Apple‘s fault, but not everyone is a tech-proficient.

Maybe 8/10 people in your family circle would benefit from reading the published user guide for their device. That doesn't take technological proficiency, just reading.

Maybe the design is terrible, that's an option too.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#637
post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's consider cars (or vehicles in general) as another mainstream example of completely vertically integrated products which comprise hardware and – now – software. Toyota Motor Corp., Volkswagen Group (multiple brands), Hyundai Motor Group, GM and Stellantis N.V. are the top 5 largest automakers in the world whose annual output is comparable with that of largest smartphone makers, including Apple (with the adjustme…

Pretty much none of what you mention is true. There's a huge ecosystem of 3rd party mechanics, replacement parts, services and maintenance for used cars. Even a cursory glance at the world around you quickly proves that what you wrote it just utter crock.

There is no need to respond if you can't hold a civilised discourse and choose to descend into directed insults instead.

One can't install a Ford made shock absorber on a Honda Civic and vice versa. The time of interchangeable spare parts came to an end some time in 1980-90's where the car manufacturers started actively embracing the vertical integration. If somebody makes compatible, third party parts, it is mostly for a small selection of performance and sports cars and is not mainstream. I just replaced the chipped and cracked windshield last week, and I had to wait for 2 months for the replacement to arrive because only the original glass existed out there, with no cheap Chinese alternatives being available – they don't exist, either.

And I had a continuous problem with spare parts for my previous 20 years old car that was more than 10 years out of production, and the car manufacturer stopping making them after 10 years. Lucky for me it was just zero problems, but lately wear and tear turned every other annual safety inspection into a 1-2 week long wait with the mechanic trying to hunt something down. The last time they just gave up and fudged it.

My new car comes with a non-negotiable condition of first five years of regular service getting done at an authorised dealership as a condition of the car warranty. If I were to do it elsewhere, the warranty would lapse automatically. After the end of the warranty, I can take my car wherever I want.

No, you can't install your own or 3rd party software in a modern car, either. This is well known and is indisputable.

So all of that rings true.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Communicate outside the home" is a pretty vast difference It's genuinely baffling to me that people actually see things this way. When there is a social reason to be outside the house, I take that as a reason not to be staring at a glowing rectangle.

Ok, and what about the overwhelming majority of reasons to be outside the house, which are not social reasons? It's a bit silly to abandon all contact with the world just because you have to wait for the doctor, go grocery shopping, sit in the train, etc.

The world got by just fine when answering machines and paper maps were the norm.

What is silly about going to do an errand without distractions? It's more efficient in my experience. I wont look up stuff in the store or answer texts that in reality can totally wait. I've yet to have something happen where not having my phone lead to me missing some big emergency or event.

Going out into the world is in fact the opposite of abandoning all contact, it's directly interfacing. According to your comment, you equated your world with access to your phone.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#639
post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of it is more specific to social media, where it is a vicious circle. I wouldn’t latch to voting with your wallet, it’s merely one symptom of a complex issue. For social it’s key to communicate with others, so as long as you use it you kind of have to be where everybody is, and everybody is where the free stuff is. If you can’t easily leave and continue communicating, because the platform attracts advertisers by…

I think if there ever was an indicator that some function should be owned by the public, it’s when the public has come to expect it exists for free, when the social expectation is this thing is so fundamental and necessary that paying for it is absurd and creates equity of access problems.

An issue with regulation of something as public good is stagnation. When companies can make money and compete for serving the customer best, this drives innovation.

I used to think that a good alternative could be making it mandatory to provide feature-complete API for interoperation. Third-party cross-platform clients would remove lock-in and make ads unprofitable, demoting Big Social from platforms to pipes, like mobile providers, and force them to charge for service. It would no longer be in their interest to serve aggravating content to keep us glued to screens if we can just switch to a more mental health friendly competitor, and besides it would lower their server load.

However, I am not sure anymore whether it would do much to other shady practices like all sorts of data mining and sale, including the new practice of using private data for training commercial ML models.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are the gatekeeper to one thing: their own app store Which is also the only allowed way to run software on 58% of US smartphones? > Unlike Google, Meta, and Amazon I could agree with Google, but how are Meta and Amazon gatekeepers of the internet? Especially _more than Apple_

So what? Controlling how many fart apps are available on its platform does not make Apple a gatekeeper to any part of the Internet. Apple does not funnel Web traffic into its properties. Think it through: Amazon dominates shopping-search results. It easily swamps any other shopping portal or indie vendor. So it is a de facto gatekeeper to a huge portion of online shopping. You're citing Apple's alleged 58% of phone-p…

> So what? Controlling how many fart apps are available on its platform does not make Apple a gatekeeper to any part of the Internet.

Controlling what kind of software, including _web browsers_, runs on the main device for the majority of the US population, does not make it a gatekeeper? That doesn't make any sense to me. Want to go to Amazon? You need an app or a browser to access it, both of these are controlled by Apple on its devices. Meta/Facebook? Same.

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