The $25k car is going extinct? • Hacker News Board

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#631

Post by sehansen » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 1:16 PM UTC

holowoodman wrote: post #364

gmac wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are cheaper European cars than VW (and why compare with their 'average mid-range offering'?). The new (and widely liked) Renault 5 EV starts at around €21K, for instance. Probably a bit smaller than something made in China for the same money, but not worlds apart. https://www.renault.fr/vehicules-electriques/r5-e-tech-elect...

Yes, you can buy a Dacia for below 20kEur, but even those have gotten far more expensive lately. It used to be that around 10 years ago, a Dacia Logan (typical station wagon family car) could be had for 11kEur. Nowadays the comparable Dacia Duster (SUV instead of station wagon, but somewhat similar slightly smaller internal space) will set you back 18kEur. Most of this price hike is claimed to come from mandatory ele…

Renault ended their battery leasing program in 2021: https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/news/168706/new-renault-zoe-price...

The Renault 5 prices in gmac's link is with battery.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#632

Post by happosai » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 1:16 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #381

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that affordable European models are disappearing. The average mid-range offering from, say, Volkswagen, has become quite surprisingly expensive. But this is why Chinese cars are taking over in Europe. Half the new cars I see are from Geely, BYD, Chery, etc. These average about 20,000-25,000 EUR new. My own opinion, having looked into the matter a bit, is that you'd have to be insane to buy a Volkswagen or B…

> If I were in the market for a new car, I wouldn't consider anything but a Chinese car. The problem with these are a few things: 1. service network. When something goes kaput with a VW, BMW, Mercedes, Ford, GM, Toyota and even Tesla, there's ample service stations available to get the car back up and running. With a Chinese manufacturer no one but car nerds has heard about? Good luck finding anyone willing to even t…

People used to say the same things about Japanese cars...

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#633

Post by reliabilityguy » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 1:17 PM UTC

LastTrain wrote: post #580

mattmaroon wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it’s well below the minimum sustainable level due to Chinese government subsidies.

Wait until you hear about US federal and state automaker subsidies!

Can you provide some information on this, please?

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#634

Post by mberning » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 1:17 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #627

tlogan wrote: post #577

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This…

> - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) You'll need to provide hard evidence for this. I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup). That being said, it is possible we have more models now under 25.000 but what $15/25k used to buy you (segment wise) has downgraded.

You are 100% correct. I was a senior in college and my beater died. I went to the Mazda dealer and talked them down to $13k on a brand new Mazda3. My payment was like $280.

Now inflation adjusted that is supposedly just shy of $22k. But it’s not the full story. That car was actually very nice for the time and to get an equivalently nice car today it’s not going to be a bare bones Nissan Versa or something like that.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#635

Post by ceejayoz » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 1:18 PM UTC

BanterTrouble wrote: post #597

bumby wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those “useless” sensors like tire pressure or backup camera are required by law. Even if you get a bare bones hatchback (manual transmission, manual locks, manual windows etc.) they’ll be forced to include those.

The tyre pressure sensor you can make an argument to be required by law as uneven tyre pressures can negatively effect handling. However the backup camera being required by law is absolutely ridiculous. You can just either use the mirrors or turn your head.

> You can just either use the mirrors or turn your head.

I can see quite a lot in my backup cam that is in a visual blind spot in both of my cars.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#636

Post by reliabilityguy » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 1:18 PM UTC

Neikius wrote: post #430

BanterTrouble wrote: post #382

I work on my own cars now (as a hobby really) and one of the reasons the new cars are so expensive is they are much more complicated. A lot of this seems to be over-engineering IMO. This is alluded to in the article, but not explicitly stated. The cars I work on are from the early 90s and everything is very simple to understand. e.g. Electronics are normally simple circuits that aren't much more complicated than what…

Fully agree with what you are saying. I do have some beef with the prices of these electronic gadgets in the car. 300€ price for a new sensor or something similar? Sensor costs are usually a single digit or below. Somehow vendors found a way to inflate that price and this is destroying the repairability.

Car manufactures make probably more money on parts than selling new cars

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#637

Post by LUmBULtERA » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 1:19 PM UTC

mlinhares wrote: post #616

safety1st wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American expat living in Thailand reporting in. I think the cheapest car in Thailand is the 2025 Suzuki Celerio which is a 5 seater hatchback. At the current exchange rate it's $9,800 brand new. Of course this figure is not adjusted for purchasing power (so what?). We have BYDs here and I haven't really looked at them but pretty sure a few are under $25K. If Americans can't get a new car for under $25,000 but Southea…

There are market dynamics here as well, Americans don’t want to buy a car like the Celerio, most brands have equivalent cars selling in developing countries and Europe but they don’t bring them here because Americans mostly want to buy SUVs.

Except Americans are not offered a $10k new car, so it's impossible to know they won't buy them.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#638

Post by washadjeffmad » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 1:19 PM UTC

diggan wrote: post #560

contrarian1234 wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the title of the article is stated in pretax figures.... Apples to Oranges You might as well add in the lifetime maintenance costs while you're at it (would be very useful to know technically ... Maybe BYD makes it up on repairs or something)

> Because the title of the article is stated in pretax figures.... How do you know that? Neither the submission article (hubspot) or the article referenced by the parent comment (gmauthority) mentions anything about the figures being pretax or posttax, why would they default to talking a price no one else would use? > You might as well add in the lifetime maintenance costs while you're at it If that's something you h…

The submission says MSRP, which doesn't include tax, financing, title, or registration in the US.

Americans paid $25k for $18k sticker price vehicles a decade ago. Now they're paying $32k for $25k vehicles. People I talk to who have new cars say their payments are from $500-800/mo, often for longer than 60 months.

If my 20 year old Toyota ever quits, I'll probably build what amounts to a street legal go-kart and invest in another, larger cooler and freezer.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#639

Post by yks » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 1:21 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #615

smeej wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gosh, I didn't realize people weren't learning these things anymore, just as a matter of normal life. I'm an early(ish) Millennial woman from the suburbs, from a family with no meaningful mechanical knowledge or training of any kind, and I've done most of these things. I would have considered myself pretty ignorant about cars prior to reading your comment. Thanks for shifting my perspective to seeing myself as having…

Great comment because I wondering the same thing. Do people not do any of those things on their own anymore? At a minimum, changing the oil was something I did with my dad as a kid. The hardest thing I've done was probably change a starter. ICE's are conceptually pretty simple. Anyone who has built a computer should be able to do basic car maintenance if they want to. The electronics is what makes newer cars more com…

If you want to sell a few year old used car, the paper trail of the professionally done service is a bonus.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#640

Post by potato3732842 » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 1:22 PM UTC

BanterTrouble wrote: post #382

I work on my own cars now (as a hobby really) and one of the reasons the new cars are so expensive is they are much more complicated. A lot of this seems to be over-engineering IMO. This is alluded to in the article, but not explicitly stated. The cars I work on are from the early 90s and everything is very simple to understand. e.g. Electronics are normally simple circuits that aren't much more complicated than what…

> A lot of this seems to be over-engineering IMO. This is alluded to in the article, but not explicitly stated.

I think a large part of the problem is that a sort of very scientific "modify a single variable at a time" type of engineering culture permeated academia a couple decades ago and now we're reaping what we sow.

The sort of practical "I snipped this corner so now they pack neatly four to a box from the supplier and I altered that curve so now there's clearance for more types of wrenches around the bolt head and I smoothed out the rib shape for die longevity and in doing all that I reduced the mass by 6.5%" type stuff that engineering culture used to look up to has been replaced with KPI chasing "You told me to reduce mass by 6% and I reduced mass by 7%, 2nd and 3rd order consequences be damned" engineering culture that used to be fairly confined to the rich half of a certain continent is now what is worshipped.

And likewise you get spiraling complexity because the only thing holding it back is the bean counters (when doing so is a priority) whereas before there was kind of natural restraint keeping it back on both sides. So as they go around updating platforms and models and sub-assemblies as whatnot the compliance ratchets up, unless the mandate at the time is to reduce it.